A combined Knifemakers Guild/American Bladesmiths Show

[joshsmith]

The more I read these competing threads, the more I can see why some collectors don't want to participate in the forum. This has nothing to do with knives and everything to do with people and business.

As a retired senior executive of a Fortune 100 company, I have seen meeting after meeting that have gone nowhere and accomplished nothing. Why? Not because of good suggestions, but because of personality conflicts and people who don't have the authority and balls to make decisions.

That's my two cents. That's all I am willing to spend on competing threads that go nowhere.

Very well said. It's personality conflicts like those above that brought the Guild down in the first place. It's sad and in the end nothing good is accomplished.

 

[Les Robertson]

Josh:

personality conflicts like those above that brought the Guild down in the first place.

Wrong, it was lack of leadership. The inability of those in charge to do what was best for the entire organization.

The ABS Suffers from the same disease.

 

[Don Hanson III]

One thing is for certain. I will be at the Blade show next year and lookin forard to it.

Maybe my only show...

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Don,

I see myself doing less shows as well next year. Well at least shows I set up at.

It seems the regional/club shows will survive do to the close proximity for many who set up at these shows. Allows makers to set up at shows and not miss work. An added bonus is that the tables are usually less expensive as is the hotel.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Why this proposal and the discussion is just that...a discussion. And nothing will come of it:

1. Anything except praise is criticism and is dismissed.

2. Ego and turf.

3. Each side would have to give up a little. (see No. 2 above)

4. It makes sense.

5. For an idea to be communicated one person has to say it--and the other party has to be willing to hear it.

6. Knifemakers always know what is best for the handmade knife business. Collectors, editors, show promoters, suppliers, and dealers do not.

7. With a one year ahead outlook things look just fine thank you, no need to have a five year or three year plan.

8. The Blade Show is good enough for everyone, and we only need one of those a year. No need to clutter up the year with another great show.

9. Inertia is a hard thing to move.

10. All of the above combine to make the fundamental mindset held by a great number of those within the handmade knife industry that in my opinion needs to be stood on its head.

Of course I do have to admit that I am open to other opinions and subject to revise the above statements when I see they are wrong.

Bruce, I'm inclined to agree that unfortunately a combined ABS/Guild show will never get off the ground. However, I feel threads like this at least get more thinking "big picture" as in what benefits the custom knife community as a whole, as opposed to each of us individually.

 

[sheathmaker]

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat for a few reasons. One being I don't see the point in arguing with someone who has a true disdain for the organization. The sad thing is that Les has many good thoughts but his disdain for the organization, casts an annoying shadow over his posts.

I have plenty of bones to pick with the ABS but don't see the point in airing them here. In turn if I defend the ABS here I just look like a shill for the ABS. So instead I won't do either. I'll only comment on what I can control.

As a member of the ABS show committee I can tell you that we have already addressed the few concerns that came up this year. As with any show the first year is a learning experience. We have listened to our table holders and collectors and have already made the appropriate changes for 2010.

In regards to the original intent of this thread I can't see that show happening, whatever the reasons. Seems to me that Blade is the show your are discussing on steroids. Why have two Blade Shows and split the customers up more? If anything we need less shows.

Seems some are just taking advantage of this thread to bash the organizations which is unfortunate. I don't have the power to affect a decision on something like this either way. So instead I will put my efforts into my own business and the show I put on here.

Except for Blade I'm inclined to think that the large super shows are a thing of the past. It seems the small personal shows are the new thing. I think Blade will continue to be "the" one super show that will continue if for no other reason than their own marketing power.

If I were the ABS or Guild I would talk to the big wigs at Blade about controlling the tables in their own sections at Blade. In my opinion suppliers and non members should not be in those two sections. The Guild and ABS sections should be just that.

It's really sad that so many of these threads have to go straight in to the tank. It reflects poorly on our industry and drives away excited collectors. I say this because I've had collectors tell me this about the forums.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, because the "experts" were already on duty and doing what they do best............and I think Bob B made a good point in his comment.

My only reaction to Josh's post is I WISH I HAD SAID THAT. Josh you hit the nail square on the head with every paragraph.:thumbup:

Paul

 

[Les Robertson]

Josh:

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat for a few reasons. One being I don't see the point in arguing with someone who has a true disdain for the organization. The sad thing is that Les has many good thoughts but his disdain for the organization, casts an annoying shadow over his posts.

The annoying shadow is annoying to you and a few others.

Josh, your livelihood is tied directly to you being a good toad within the ABS. Subsequently it is incumbent upon you to write about the positive aspects of the ABS. I understand that and can appreciate that. As you and every other Mastersmith knows....not adhering to the "politics" of the ABS can and will have a negative affect on maker. Again, not to cast an annoying shadow if you don't know what I am talking about...contact Kevin Jones.

Your show is allowed to exist with little or no interference as opposed to another well known Micro Show. I won't address them here as to not cast an "annoying shadow". If you have questions regarding this, contact Kevin Jones...he is intimately familiar with the "interference".

Josh, I have a question for you. Name 3 things the ABS does to directly promote its members and their knives to potential collectors.

1) The Website does not count as it lists less than 20% of the Active Membership. I suspect that if you were a JS you might be more sensitive to this. Check out the Guild Website. They list everyone and even do it by level of membership within the organization.

2) The Show as it is very limited in scope given the amount of members in the Guild. Im pretty sure there are bigger rooms with better lighting in San Antonio.

3) Hammer-In's are set up to teach other makers. The fact that knives are sold there is a benefit.

4) The School at Old Washington is set up to teach makers how to forge. Apparently there seems to be an issue at times of actually letting the public watch? Which is hard to understand given the viewing room that is set up for the public.

Oh and why is it that if both the Guild and the ABS have a non-profit tax status (remember non-profit is not a type of an organization...had to explain that last year to a few Mastersmiths ).

Why are members in good standing of the Guild allowed to put the Guilds Logo on their business cards, advertising, website and even as an avatar on their posts here on Blade Forums. While members in good standing of the ABS cannot post the ABS logo on their business cards.....etc...etc.

Josh if you don't know the answer. Im sure you could pass this along to the Board of Directors or even the President of the ABS.

One other question, little off topic. If an ABS Mastersmith has blades laser cut to sell at a less expensive price, can they put their MS stamp on them?

I ask as I thought the Mastersmith had to actually forge the blade in order to put MS on it.

 

[Kevin Jones]

The more I read these competing threads, the more I can see why some collectors don't want to participate in the forum. This has nothing to do with knives and everything to do with people and business.

Though I love to look at beautiful knife images, attention to the business side of knives is important if we are to continue having them to enjoy.

 

[Rusty McDonald]

One other question, little off topic. If an ABS Mastersmith has blades laser cut to sell at a less expensive price, can they put their MS stamp on them?

I ask as I thought the Mastersmith had to actually forge the blade in order to put MS on it.

I guess slipjoints and folders would fall into this as well?

 

[betzner]

Though I love to look at beautiful knife images, attention to the business side of knives is important if we are to continue having them to enjoy.

These particular threads deal not with our right to own and bear knives but with the problems apparently plaguing two knife organizations, problems that are people and business related.

Until they are addressed properly, what's the point?

And with that, I can see no more reason to follow these particular threads unless they change course and cause change.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Josh:



The annoying shadow is annoying to you and a few others.

Josh, your livelihood is tied directly to you being a good toad within the ABS. Subsequently it is incumbent upon you to write about the positive aspects of the ABS. I understand that and can appreciate that. As you and every other Mastersmith knows....not adhering to the "politics" of the ABS can and will have a negative affect on maker. Again, not to cast an annoying shadow if you don't know what I am talking about...contact Kevin Jones.

Your show is allowed to exist with little or no interference as opposed to another well known Micro Show. I won't address them here as to not cast an "annoying shadow". If you have questions regarding this, contact Kevin Jones...he is intimately familiar with the "interference".

Josh, I have a question for you. Name 3 things the ABS does to directly promote its members and their knives to potential collectors.

1) The Website does not count as it lists less than 20% of the Active Membership. I suspect that if you were a JS you might be more sensitive to this. Check out the Guild Website. They list everyone and even do it by level of membership within the organization.

2) The Show as it is very limited in scope given the amount of members in the Guild. Im pretty sure there are bigger rooms with better lighting in San Antonio.

3) Hammer-In's are set up to teach other makers. The fact that knives are sold there is a benefit.

4) The School at Old Washington is set up to teach makers how to forge. Apparently there seems to be an issue at times of actually letting the public watch? Which is hard to understand given the viewing room that is set up for the public.

Oh and why is it that if both the Guild and the ABS have a non-profit tax status (remember non-profit is not a type of an organization...had to explain that last year to a few Mastersmiths ).

Why are members in good standing of the Guild allowed to put the Guilds Logo on their business cards, advertising, website and even as an avatar on their posts here on Blade Forums. While members in good standing of the ABS cannot post the ABS logo on their business cards.....etc...etc.

Josh if you don't know the answer. Im sure you could pass this along to the Board of Directors or even the President of the ABS.

One other question, little off topic. If an ABS Mastersmith has blades laser cut to sell at a less expensive price, can they put their MS stamp on them?

I ask as I thought the Mastersmith had to actually forge the blade in order to put MS on it.

Les, for someone who is not trying to cast an annoying shadow, you have referenced issues between the ABS and Jerry Fisk in three of your posts on the BF over the last two weeks (in two different posts in this thread alone).
I will not discuss anything between the ABS and Jerry Fisk either here or in private.

This thread is not about Jerry or the ABS, lets get back to the topic of a combined ABS/Guild show.

 

[Les Robertson]

Kevin,

First my questions were geared towards Josh.

Les, for someone who is not trying to cast an annoying shadow, you have referenced issues between the ABS and Jerry Fisk in three of your posts on the BF over the last two weeks (in two different posts in this thread alone).

I will not discuss anything between the ABS and Jerry Fisk either here or in private. This thread is not about Jerry or the ABS, lets get back to the topic of a combined ABS/Guild show.

Kevin what I wrote was:

Again, not to cast an annoying shadow if you don't know what I am talking about...contact Kevin Jones.

Second, did I say discuss it in this thread? No. Did I give a name? No

It was Kevin Jones...AKA Blabber Mouth who had to use Jerry's name. But since you opened your mouth....pull your foot out and tell me if I am wrong. So you are saying there are no issues between Jerry and the ABS? It's ok...everybody knows....now.

I asked Josh to go directly to you as you feel the need to get into everyone's business.

Like last week when I suggested another member contact me offline to discuss some information on a thread. As I did not use the makers name.

For some odd reason you thought it was somehow your business and contacted that BF Member and asked him what I told him.

Kevin, why was that your business? A private conversation between two forum members? A private conversation that in no way shape or form concerned you.

Wasn't it you earlier who said something about me being "childish"?

So Kevin, do you routinely go behind people's backs...or was it just me?

Kevin, I have to say there seems to be a "character" issue here.

Im looking forward to your answer.

 

[severedthumbs]

Les we both know the answers you are seeking.



Les, I for one thank you for sharing your insights with us in this thread.

You gotta love the haters.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,
Second, did I say discuss it in this thread? No. Did I give a name? No

Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of Jerry or the ABS knows just who you were referring too.

It was Kevin Jones...AKA Blabber Mouth who had to use Jerry's name. But since you opened your mouth....pull your foot out and tell me if I am wrong. So you are saying there are no issues between Jerry and the ABS? It's ok...everybody knows....now.

You stated in a post the other day (below) that it was common knowledge. So I spilled the beans today, yet the other day it was common knoweledge?

I'm not saying there is or is not an issue between the ABS and Jerry, as it's none of my business. So as I said in my previous post, I will not discuss it here or in private. Sounds to me like you were trying to get me into someone's business by instructing others to contact me for information.

Numerous people on this forum are familiar with what I am talking about.

It is common knowledge.

Like last week when I suggested another member contact me offline to discuss some information on a thread. As I did not use the makers name.
For some odd reason you thought it was somehow your business and contacted that BF Member and asked him what I told him.
Kevin, why was that your business? A private conversation between two forum members? A private conversation that in no way shape or form concerned you.

It certainly wasn't private to him. And it did concern me as you did use Jerry's name in that post (below). And he is a very good friend of mine and was not represented. So when you make a remark regarding him on a public forum then ask someone to contact you off-line, you damn right I will get to the bottom of it. What (if anything) is going on between Jerry and the ABS in none of your business to spread around. But yet you say I'm the one that feels the need to get into someone else's business.

I have seen countess makers over the 25 years who have ruined their business because they were an "Artist" (the arrogant mentality...not the gifted craftsman), the jealous maker, the maker who always complains "it's not fair", the maker who only does it "their way" (the fact that they are making a "custom" knife seems to be lost on them), etc.

The opposite to this is would be the knife maker being their own advocate. A perfect example would be Jerry Fisk.

As well makers should view Jerry's story as a cautionary tale.

hey Les, I'm not familiar with the cautionary tale of which you speak. Would you elaborate on it please?

Hi Lorien,

We can talk off line. My objective is not to derail this thread.

Kevin, I have to say there seems to be a "character" issue here.

Yes, but not with mine.

************************

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

If I were the ABS or Guild I would talk to the big wigs at Blade about controlling the tables in their own sections at Blade. In my opinion suppliers and non members should not be in those two sections. The Guild and ABS sections should be just that.

I specifically addressed that issue with the Blade Show management this year. I won't cross-post between forums but the management provided a lengthy explanation of why they cannot do it. If you want to read it, here is the link: http://forum.blademag.com/tm.aspx?m=2854

 

[Les Robertson]

Kevin,

And it did concern me as you did use Jerry's name in that post (below). And he is a very good friend of mine and was not represented. So when you make a remark regarding him on a public forum then ask someone to contact you off-line, you damn right I will get to the bottom of it. What (if anything) is going on between Jerry and the ABS in none of your business to spread around. But yet you say I'm the one that feels the need to get into someone else's business.

It is not your business....your name is not Jerry Fisk.

If you want to know what I said to Lorien, you grow a set of balls and email me directly.

If Jerry wants to know what I said...Jerry has my phone number and email.

Lastly you will note every time I speak about Jerry I HAVE HIS BACK. I never, ever take the ABS over Jerry.

I used Jerry as a cautionary tale for other makers. Jerry, in my opinion is the most influential ABS Master Smith in the last 10 - 15 years. I have said that numerous times...again and again.

Kevin, what do you think make the ABS snap?

Jerry went all over the world introducing and training makers how to make forged blades? Isn't educating people about the forged blade what they are about? Did he educate too many makers?

Was it that Jerry started to become the Face of the ABS and became so popular that there were those in the ABS that couldn't stand it? Was it jealousy about his success?

Was it the fact that Jerry had the business sense to start his very successful Micro-Show?

Kevin, what is it that made the ABS Snap. Going out of their way to have no classes scheduled at Old Washington while the Micro-Show was going on. Kevin what is it that would make an organization of almost 1000 members to single out 1 maker?

Why don't you stand up for Jerry. Instead of sneaking around like a school girl trying to get a bit of gossip. So you might be able to run back to Jerry and be a tattle tale. Too bad for you there was nothing there other than what Jerry and I have already discussed face to face.

To members of the ABS, the cautionary tale is, that if you become too successful...those who lack the knife making skills and more importantly the business skills will do everything they can to drag you down.

You see for those who are incompetent it is easier to expend the effort to take those who are successful. Than to actually put in the time, effort and hard work to become a legend.

Now Kevin, you know how I feel about Jerry Fisk and what the ABS did to him.

No need to sneak around and ask somebody about a conversation that in no way, shape or form had anything to do with you.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Les, in interest of saving this forum from all your drama our discussion is best finished face to face.

 

[joshsmith]

Josh:



The annoying shadow is annoying to you and a few others.

Josh, your livelihood is tied directly to you being a good toad within the ABS. Subsequently it is incumbent upon you to write about the positive aspects of the ABS. I understand that and can appreciate that. As you and every other Mastersmith knows....not adhering to the "politics" of the ABS can and will have a negative affect on maker. Again, not to cast an annoying shadow if you don't know what I am talking about...contact Kevin Jones.

Les. Arguing with you will not reflect positively on either of us. It's quite pointless. I will try and answer a couple of your questions though, respectfully.

As to the above paragraph, my livelihood is not tied to anything but my own hard work. My collectors buy my knives because they like my knives and me. Very few if any buy them because of the ABS.

The reason I will not argue with you about the ABS on the forum is because when I have an issue with the ABS I will go directly to their board meetings as I did this year in San Antonio. Doing it here accomplishes nothing.

The ABS will do their thing, I'll do mine. I hope they succeed and continue to grow but it won't affect my business either way

I'm not clear what your statement about Kevin Jones means.??

Your show is allowed to exist with little or no interference as opposed to another well known Micro Show. I won't address them here as to not cast an "annoying shadow". If you have questions regarding this, contact Kevin Jones...he is intimately familiar with the "interference".

What are you talking about here? Interference from who? Unclear to me. Allowed to exist? Is someone interfering in Jerry's show? Honestly I'm not sure what your talking about. I host a show and no one has a say in whether I can or can't. If the collectors come, which they do, it will survive. If not, it will die. So far so good.

Josh, I have a question for you. Name 3 things the ABS does to directly promote its members and their knives to potential collectors.

I could care less about what the ABS does for me. In this hand out society to many are looking to others for answers. It's my job to positively promote my knives and in turn custom knives as a whole. If an organization comes along that promotes knives to collectors I'll join, oh wait I did join the CKCA.

1) The Website does not count as it lists less than 20% of the Active Membership. I suspect that if you were a JS you might be more sensitive to this. Check out the Guild Website. They list everyone and even do it by level of membership within the organization.

2) The Show as it is very limited in scope given the amount of members in the Guild. Im pretty sure there are bigger rooms with better lighting in San Antonio.

3) Hammer-In's are set up to teach other makers. The fact that knives are sold there is a benefit.

4) The School at Old Washington is set up to teach makers how to forge. Apparently there seems to be an issue at times of actually letting the public watch? Which is hard to understand given the viewing room that is set up for the public.

Oh and why is it that if both the Guild and the ABS have a non-profit tax status (remember non-profit is not a type of an organization...had to explain that last year to a few Mastersmiths ).
Not my concern.
Why are members in good standing of the Guild allowed to put the Guilds Logo on their business cards, advertising, website and even as an avatar on their posts here on Blade Forums. While members in good standing of the ABS cannot post the ABS logo on their business cards.....etc...etc.
Not my concern. People buy my knives, not a logo on my card.
Josh if you don't know the answer. Im sure you could pass this along to the Board of Directors or even the President of the ABS.
[/COLOR]

One other question, little off topic. If an ABS Mastersmith has blades laser cut to sell at a less expensive price, can they put their MS stamp on them?

I ask as I thought the Mastersmith had to actually forge the blade in order to put MS on it.On blades I have water jet I don't stamp them.[/ What others do is their business not mine. I would just hope the maker would be honest about their process if asked by a collector.

I think most makers control what they can and what any other maker or organization does has little relevance on their lives. In the end it's their knives and character that will decide whether they sink or swim in the knife world.

 

[joshsmith]

I specifically addressed that issue with the Blade Show management this year. I won't cross-post between forums but the management provided a lengthy explanation of why they cannot do it. If you want to read it, here is the link: http://forum.blademag.com/tm.aspx?m=2854

Thanks Mike. I appreciate it.

 

[Marcel54]

Josh, your livelihood is tied directly to you being a good toad within the ABS. Subsequently it is incumbent upon you to write about the positive aspects of the ABS. I understand that and can appreciate that. As you and every other Mastersmith knows....not adhering to the "politics" of the ABS can and will have a negative affect on maker. Again, not to cast an annoying shadow if you don't know what I am talking about...contact Kevin Jones.

Les. Arguing with you will not reflect positively on either of us. It's quite pointless. I will try and answer a couple of your questions though, respectfully.

As to the above paragraph, my livelihood is not tied to anything but my own hard work. My collectors buy my knives because they like my knives and me. Very few if any buy them because of the ABS.

Josh, you're absolutely right with this statement. I bought from you (and hopefully will do again) because you are a customer orientated, very talented knifemaker with a good business sense and excellent communication skills. That's what a collector, at least I am, looks for when trying to determine where to spend his hard earned money.

Marcel