A Destruction Test Knife WIP

P. McKinley

P. McKinley

Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
2,010
This will be the third of my knives to be subjected to the rigors of the ABS JS testing criteria. I did the first test on a 5"-bladed hunter 3 years ago and it failed the bend test.... achieving only a 25 degree bend until cracks appeared along the sharpened edge extending approx 1/3 into the blade. The second was also a hunter style blade, 5", that managed an almost 40 degree bend before similar cracks appeared near tip. I know I can do better.

This time I'm building a 8 1/4"-bladed, harpoon-tip chopper that will be built to my usual standards of fit and finish. The blade is Aldo's 1084FG, forged to shape with a distal taper and forged bevels. I plan on an fitting the blade with a mild steel s-guard, copper spacers, and a Red Oak handle.

So away we go:

Yesterday I forged the blade:

Initial heat:


Almost there:


The blade is shaped, but not the tang....... yet. I'm getting there.


I seem to have lost several shots of the tang forging and final shaping process. However, the tang was forged to rough shape then the whole blade final-shaped and the bevels ground. I pick up the action with the following steps. Its also pretty clear that I consumed way to much tea last night resulting in these jittery, blurry shots.

Post heat treat/temper. The blade was heated to 1500 degrees F and soaked for 5 minutes, then quenched in 130 degree canola oil. Tempering was done at 400 degrees for 2 hrs x 2.


Sanded with 220 to remove all the crap:


Sanded to 400 with copper maker's mark plate roughly shaped:


Here's where I stand this morning. Today I'll get the blade sanded to 2000 grit and hopefully get the guard started:
 
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Good luck! You might be setting yourself up for failure.... Most JS's pass the test with 5160 blades. Also, maximum knife length is 15" with a 10" blade. Longer length, slightly convexed grind and distal taper, I'm told, are your friends for the JS test... If passing the test is your goa,l Ed Caffrey has a great tutorial on it.
 
Brian - Thanks for the input.

The total length of this knife should come in at about 13 1/2 inches or so. I only have the means to do a flat grind so I'm limited in that respect. I've read Ed's tutorial and its source of great info on this process. And, although I do have some 5160, I've been doing a lot of 1084 forged blades. So I thought I'd see how this fares in comparison. It would be wonderful if this blade makes the ABS cut(ha ha), but my motivation is to assess my current skill level as compared to previous self-test attempts.

Its my hope that by showing almost every step of this process I can generate discussion and advice from some of the more accomplished makers on this forum..... both for my benefit, but also to the benefit of other relatively inexperienced makers like myself.

So, bring it on......PLEASE!
 
I'd follow Ed's how to pass the JS test.

Especially:

length and taper- taper is very important to flexibility
The longer it is,the wider radius you can get on the curve.

Some sort of differential heat treat or tempering
- you could still do what you are, but submerge the edge in water and draw back the spine to spring temper with a soft flame.

Eliminating the rivet holes you have in the ricasso.
 
AVigil - As you likely know, MS Royer's video series is an extraordinary glimpse into the workings of a true master of the trade. He is one of the preeminent knifemakers of our time.... at least I hold him in that regard.

1234... - I believe I have sufficient length, height, thickness and taper in this blade, and I plan on drawing back the spine when I get to 1000 grit(almost there actually).

Here's one side of the blade at being worked with 1000 grit:


I thought I'd post some shots of my shop and equipment for a bit of context.

These are my hand sanding implements:


Grinding and drilling:


My grinder set-up:


Clean work station for design and leather work:


Work bench:


Hand sanding set-up:


More this evening hopefully.
 
The blade is now hand sanded to 1500 grit.
However, I ran into some "issues".

I've also drawn back the spine to spring temper(blue). I don't do this very often and I hate the process - likely because there has to be a better way. I take the blade to 800 or 1000 grit, then submerge the edge in water, heat to blue with the propane torch, clean up surface rust, then finish the sanding.

Last night I began the heating at the choil and started moving forward. Then I ran out of propane!! After taking the time to refit a new bottle and finish the job, I was left with a substantial line in the blade at the waterline.

So, back to 400 grit and begin the process all over again. I finished up to 1500 grit last night at 1:45am.

If there's a better way, please advise.

This is one blade to 1000 grit....the first time!!


Set up for drawing the spine:


This is when I ran out of propane:


I'm working on the guard now. More later.
 
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Hello Bigblue. Just some observations. You might want to go shallower on the depth in your water bath, leaving only a half inch or so of blade edge in the water. The color line will stop approximately 1/4" above the water. Propane works fine, just takes longer, and I would draw the back at least twice. Go ahead and draw the tang also. I am curious to see how it turns out. Yes 5160 seems to be the standard, but I have seen the test passed with 1095, 1084, L-6, and W-2.
Good luck
 
Blue ol chum... how's it going, eh?

If I may be so bold to a fellow Canuckian.... what are you thinking, finishing a blade to such a degree for a destruction test! Ha!

On a more serious note... and purely personal opinion....

1. Take advantage of the length allowances for the ABS test. 10" blade buddy.
2. Distil tapers are your friend.
3. Round all sharp corners and don't get fancy with bladeshapes and guards... individuality is not a requirement.
4. 400F temper for Aldo's 1084 won't cut it(bwah-ha-ha) 425F minimum to start.
5. Temper the hell out of the spine and put less edge in the water. If you can, temper the entire choil/ricasso area. 3/4 of the blade width should be blue. Temper SLOWLY.

The ABS performance test is not one you would use to determine a good knife with. It is a test of your ability to control heat and understand blade geometry. Stop trying to make a proper knife for the test.... make something that will PASS.

Rick
 
Rick - I REALLY appreciate your input. Thank you!

1st - This test, to the ABS JS standards, is intended to show me if the blades/knives I make will withstand the rigors of real-life use... not necessarily to see if I could pass the actual JS test. I like the look of the peened maker's mark plate and intend to do more of this, thus the holes on the choil. We'll see how this holds up. If this feature compromises the blade's integrity I won't use it again..... kinda' why I'm doing this test.

I'm using the ABS criteria because I believe it is a reasonable approximation of what a knife may encounter during use.... albeit to the extreme. Blade geometry and heat control have to play a major role in the performance and durability of any blade.

The blade has a forged and refined distal taper.... 3/16th to near 0. I spent a great deal of time and care creating this design feature.

I'm using an S-guard because I already have one made that is a near perfect fit. I normally ease all edges anyway, not necessarily "rounded", but I can see the point(bwah-ha-ha..... back at ya).

Duly noted on the temper temp. and draw back. Thanks.

Peter
 
Bigblue17 said:
Rick - I REALLY appreciate your input. Thank you!

1st - This test, to the ABS JS standards, is intended to show me if the blades/knives I make will withstand the rigors of real-life use... not necessarily to see if I could pass the actual JS test... /snip

... I'm using the ABS criteria because I believe it is a reasonable approximation of what a knife may encounter during use.... albeit to the extreme. Blade geometry and heat control have to play a major role in the performance and durability of any blade.
Click to expand...

See guys?..... I knew there was someone on these forums that still believes my malarkey! LOL....... thanks Blue!

Do you think that the ability of a knife to bend is a virtue? I'm not sure how many ABS JS and MS would agree that the performance test reflects what a knife may encounter. The flex test is the best example of this. According to the guidelines, the blade has to be bent 90degs... under any means necessary.(hand, wrench, bar...) Where in real life would you require a knife to bend? I could see prying coming into play... at least for what you and I subject our knives to. Tough is good, but wouldn't you want the knife to be strong enough to resist flex and transfer all that energy into the task of getting at those grubs in the stump? A strong knife will pretty much fail the test, everytime. Finding the right compromise is the key and I think the ABS JS test does not accomodate for that. IMHO, the test was not intended to judge the "knife" but rather the smith as manipulator of metal. You are jumping through hoops for the judges and most would agree... that is the purpose of the test.
 
The blade is sanded to 1500 grit and the mild steel guard is shaped and dry fitted. I made this guard several weeks ago as a practice piece and just needed to adjust the profile a bit and file the tang slot to size. It looks a bit sloppy, but the fit is tight.

This is it for the night. Tomorrow I'll form a copper or brass(haven't decided yet) spacer as well as pre-shape and dry fit the Oak handle.



 
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Ben - I understand Rick's point. But to me, that's a bit like studying a school subject with the sole intent of passing a standardized exam. All you really learn is how to pass the test. If I'm going to test my knives, it'll be of the style, materials, and techniques I use on every knife I make.

Should I choose to join the ABS and, at some point, undertake the actual JS test...... then I'll heed Rick's advice to the letter.
 
Rick Marchand said:
The ABS performance test is not one you would use to determine a good knife with. It is a test of your ability to control heat and understand blade geometry. Stop trying to make a proper knife for the test.... make something that will PASS.

Rick
Click to expand...

Great Advice
 
Alright, alright, alright. How's this:

The next one of these I do, I'll make the blade exactly to the ABS test specifications and I'll adhere to Ed Caffery's recommendations for steel type, length, profile, grind style, heat treat regime, etc.

But, this is my test of my knife, done in an effort to satisfy my curiosity on my terms. Any way I look at it, pass or fail, I will learn whether my ability and style cuts the mustard(see, I did it again, bwah-ha-ha).

Look, I'm not trying to stir the pot here. I just want to see if this knife, which is representative of what I like to make, can hold up the the widely accepted standards of knife testing. Nothing more. However, if, by posting this process on this forum, I can generate conversation and advice, then it also becomes a valuable learning tool for myself and maybe others.... indeed it has already succeeded on that level for me.
 
That is fair enough Blue.... testing is always good. You will learn the point(bwah-ha-ha) at which your knives fail. People tend to think of what their knives are capable of... I like to learn what my knives CAN'T do. So, I agree with testing YOUR KNIFE on YOUR TERMS.

As for the school/standardized test analogy... I suppose you could look at it that way. Here is another way to view it...

I auditioned to be the drummer for a very technically demanding jazz band in my area. The audition consisted of the band leader playing a medley of tunes with changing tempos, feels, styles and dynamics... I went from very soft and tasteful to loud and powerful. The leader selectively chose these tunes because of their range and difficulty. I got the gig and began playing events and shows. Do you think I tried to jam pack every song with changing tempos and rythmic feels? No... that would have made it a horrible experience for the band and the audience. Some songs are soft and tasteful... some are loud and powerful. When you try to combined all of it, you get a hell of a test in skill, but a very poor example of good music. Likewise, the ABS wants to see if you can nail those extremes in one blade as a test of skill... but in my humble opinion, the result is a poor example of a good knife.

Giver hell, Blue... just be realistic when you equate your results with what is desirable in a working blade.

Rick
 
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