A Look At The Kershaw 1760 Skyline (What was TNP thinking???)

[Mal2]

See, there's that's sanctimonious attitude again. Padawan learner that I am, I tend to see a knife which requires me to conform to it to be less than optimally designed.

Ah grasshopper ..... without practice anything from a baseball bat to a light saber will require your conforming to it not it conforming to you. Try designing an F-15 that conforms to you rather than you to it....

 

[PG5768]

Hey Guys,

I did a video talking about the Kershaw 1760 Skyline, and bring into question why The Nutnfancy Project (TNP) on YouTube gave this knife "Hall of Fame" status. Have a look and let me know your thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xAfr0mFqFo

I don't own a Skyline, but do own a few flipper knives that use thumb studs as blade stops. To paraphrase what an old Sergeant Major used to tell me "Ya gotta be smarter than the knife." My opinion is Nutnfancy nailed it and you did not. Nice video otherwise.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

See, there's that's sanctimonious attitude again. Padawan learner that I am, I tend to see a knife which requires me to conform to it to be less than optimally designed.

this doesn't even make sense. how is an inanimate object supposed to conform to you?



btw, a stop pin only on one side of the blade is idiotic. it would misalign in only a few openings.

 

[Rolex John]

Ah grasshopper ..... without practice anything from a baseball bat to a light saber will require your conforming to it not it conforming to you. Try designing an F-15 that conforms to you rather than you to it....

Most fighters are indeed designed to conform to the pilot. What's a fighter that isn't? An unnamed fighter like Global Hawk. The point here is that good product design is inherently user centric to the highest degree possible. Expecting the user to conform to the product isn't.

Look, some people like flippers and some don't. But to suggest that only the "knife enlightened" can truly appreciate a flipper is ludicrous.

 

[Rolex John]

Sorry my posts came off as offensive more so than anything else John, wasn't my intention.

Well, thank you for the apology. Certainly there are times when we all offend others without having any intention of doing so. If you truly had no intention of offending (I guess I'll have to take you at your word on that) then I'd certainly hate to see you communicate in a manner in which you did. To the degree I may have a lot to learn about lives, I submit you might have something to learn about communicating.

 

[Rolex John]

this doesn't even make sense. how is an inanimate object supposed to conform to you?

I'm sorry this concept doesn't make sense to you. If a knife were designed with no consideration for the user whatsoever it would not, for example, have handles. But knife designers figured out long ago, that users are far more likely to use their product if they provide the user a way to grip the knife and not cut themselves. Thus knife handles are one example of knife designers designing their products to conform to the needs of the user.

Hopefully this now makes sense to you.

 

[Handwrecker]

Most fighters are indeed designed to conform to the pilot. What's a fighter that isn't?

Kind of a reach. Have you ever looked inside a cockpit? Jam packed with instruments, but not something I'd call user friendly. Fighters take years of extensive training and instruction for a small group of individuals to be able to be flown to their potential. This is simply a value priced knife that you're having trouble opening. Better luck on the next knife :thumbup:

 

[Mal2]

Indeed designs can conform to the operator and have to to an extent. They can even be designed to eliminate the operator. Part of the beauty of any design, however, is to be able to optimize it's characteristics with the knowledge that individuals will have enough talent and can be trained to or will train themselves to use it effectively.

The simplest devices actually take the most talent but show the steepest learning curves. Someone's first attempt at throwing a rock or using a yo yo is a hoot and an expert a thing of wonder. The complex designs are similar, however. Teach someone to drive a manual transmission car vs. an automatic. Flying a tricycle gear light airplane vs. a tail dragger. Employing an F-102 vs. an F-22.

But this is about knives, specifically the Skyline. More specifically the way it opens, and the clip. Nutin and Jonnyf demonstrated that the knife can be opened easily and quickly either way. The flipper was intuitive to me but I can't effectively use the blade stops. John couldn't use either effectively in his video. I'll bet with a bit of practice, John and I both could use either as well as Jonnyf. Larger and lower thumb studs/blade stops would compromise weight and carry. Spring assist would compromise weight, carry and cost. A push button and a spring would compromise cost, shipping and where it could be carried. The clip issue is ridiculous. Clips can easily be loosened but difficult to tighten. They should all be too tight for the average Joe from the factory.

It's obviously not for everyone but the Skyline is a brilliant design optimizing cost and carry with a very slight compromise in that it takes a few minutes to learn how to use the flipper effectively.

John, take Tom's advice and learn to use the flipper; call the thumb studs blade stops and bend the clip out a bit or remove it. I guarantee you that only your ego will prevent you from admitting that the Skyline has to be one of the most cost effective, easiest carrying and deploying 3" blades in existence.

In answer to your original question; that's what nutin was thinking....

 

[sheepdog229]

In a nutnshell, John, you should stick to rolex reviews.

 

[knivesandguns]

John, Thomas's post did not seem offensive at all to me. He was merely stating, in a nutshell, that if you really don't like the skyline, to try a different flipper knife. Just because you don't like the manuf. process of the knife (made in the USA at a $30 price point too, for crying out loud) doesn't mean that Kershaw should change the (correct) way that they've been doing it.

Mal2 put it quite well:

Indeed designs can conform to the operator and have to to an extent. They can even be designed to eliminate the operator. Part of the beauty of any design, however, is to be able to optimize it's characteristics with the knowledge that individuals will have enough talent and can be trained to or will train themselves to use it effectively.

The simplest devices actually take the most talent but show the steepest learning curves. Someone's first attempt at throwing a rock or using a yo yo is a hoot and an expert a thing of wonder. The complex designs are similar, however. Teach someone to drive a manual transmission car vs. an automatic. Flying a tricycle gear light airplane vs. a tail dragger. Employing an F-102 vs. an F-22.

But this is about knives, specifically the Skyline. More specifically the way it opens, and the clip. Nutin and Jonnyf demonstrated that the knife can be opened easily and quickly either way. The flipper was intuitive to me but I can't effectively use the blade stops. John couldn't use either effectively in his video. I'll bet with a bit of practice, John and I both could use either as well as Jonnyf. Larger and lower thumb studs/blade stops would compromise weight and carry. Spring assist would compromise weight, carry and cost. A push button and a spring would compromise cost, shipping and where it could be carried. The clip issue is ridiculous. Clips can easily be loosened but difficult to tighten. They should all be too tight for the average Joe from the factory.

It's obviously not for everyone but the Skyline is a brilliant design optimizing cost and carry with a very slight compromise in that it takes a few minutes to learn how to use the flipper effectively.

John, take Tom's advice and learn to use the flipper; call the thumb studs blade stops and bend the clip out a bit or remove it. I guarantee you that only your ego will prevent you from admitting that the Skyline has to be one of the most cost effective, easiest carrying and deploying 3" blades in existence.

In answer to your original question; that's what nutin was thinking....

 

[Rolex John]

John, Thomas's post did not seem offensive at all to me. He was merely stating, in a nutshell, that if you really don't like the skyline, to try a different flipper knife.

Thomas said a lot of things in the reply you reference, but I don't think he ever said or implied any such thing. In any event, as I've already stated I have tried another flipper, and a far more expensive one at that. Must everyone like flippers? Is there no room here for personal preference?

Just because you don't like the manuf. process of the knife (made in the USA at a $30 price point too, for crying out loud) doesn't mean that Kershaw should change the (correct) way that they've been doing it.

To be fair, the only areas of the knife which I was critical of the design/execution were the thumb studs and the pocket clip. A flipper design isn't inherently bad, just not my thing. The thumb studs on the Skyline however are bad.

 

[Rolex John]

Indeed designs can conform to the operator and have to to an extent. They can even be designed to eliminate the operator. Part of the beauty of any design, however, is to be able to optimize it's characteristics with the knowledge that individuals will have enough talent and can be trained to or will train themselves to use it effectively.

Yes, but any design will have competitors. If your competitor creates a design that is inherently more intuitive and requires less training, you're going to get beaten in the marketplace. Is the flipper system the dominant method for knife blade deployment on the market, or are other methods more preferred by customers?

The simplest devices actually take the most talent but show the steepest learning curves. Someone's first attempt at throwing a rock or using a yo yo is a hoot and an expert a thing of wonder. The complex designs are similar, however. Teach someone to drive a manual transmission car vs. an automatic. Flying a tricycle gear light airplane vs. a tail dragger. Employing an F-102 vs. an F-22.

Now you're talking about something entirely different. Any product/design will eventually reach maturity in which it's impossible to further improve upon it's design....some products/designs reach this state quicker than others. It's pretty hard to improve upon a rock.

But this is about knives, specifically the Skyline. More specifically the way it opens, and the clip. Nutin and Jonnyf demonstrated that the knife can be opened easily and quickly either way.

They demonstrated that they can, yes. In his video, Nutnfancy also was slightly critical of the thumb studs too BTW.

Larger and lower thumb studs/blade stops would compromise weight and carry.

You could increase the size of the thumb studs significantly without a significant perceptible increase in weight. And countless other knives have larger thumb studs with no compromise to carry.

The clip issue is ridiculous. Clips can easily be loosened but difficult to tighten. They should all be too tight for the average Joe from the factory.

Is it too much to expect that the end user should not have to loosen or tighten the clip? It seems to me if you loosen it (loosen the screws) you run a strong risk of the screws backing out, and loosing the knife.

John, take Tom's advice and learn to use the flipper;

I have learned, and I still prefer thumb studs. As I've stated many, many times now.

call the thumb studs blade stops

Tell that to Kershaw. As I've already pointed out, they're called thumb studs in the Kershaw Skyline product description.

and bend the clip out a bit or remove it. I guarantee you that only your ego will prevent you from admitting that the Skyline has to be one of the most cost effective, easiest carrying and deploying 3" blades in existence.

Sorry - you're blinders just don't seem to fit me. I recognize a host of knives that are cost effective, easy to carry, and don't requirement to bend anything on them to adequately function.

 

[Mal2]

Sorry you wasted your money but don't tell me you weren't critical of the flipper or that you had taken the time to learn it and decided it is not your thing. You couldn't use it. And don't criticize me for having blinders on. I can't use the blade stops either but I can open the knife.

A rock is the easiest thing to improve on there is.

Bigger thumb studs would increase weight, cost and catch things in and around the pocket. A compromise no matter how small.

Some like clips tight and some loose. The maker can't please everyone but best to err on the safe, and easy to adjust, side. Who would even consider loosening the screws?! I can't believe you said that.

If you have indeed learned to use the "pusher" you owe it to your fans to update your video; you didn't know then and blamed it on the flipper itself.

Kershaw designed the knife; they know what they are and don't need you or me to tell them.

Nutin goes a long way, sometimes too far, to make it clear his observations are just that and not absolute; you didn't with statements like, "you can't open the blade without a flip of the wrist"....

You have come a long way from the video but are still defending the undefendable. You asked for our thoughts and then got all defensive when you got them. If you were looking for complements on the technical quality of your video; you have mine. It is superb. Content, not so much, at least learn the nomenclature and how to use whatever features the knife has before rolling tape. I apologize as well if I offend you with my discussion. Believe it or not I've been careful for me but I come from 20+ years in the military where we, in most cases, didn't have the luxury of pussy footing around things for the sake of not offending.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done.....

 

[Rolex John]

Sorry you wasted your money

I didn't....I said in my video the Skyline is a great $30.00 knife.

And don't criticize me for having blinders on. I can't use the blade stops either but I can open the knife.

You can't use the thumb studs (and recognize that's what the official Kershaw designation for them is) yet refuse to acknowledge they're poorly designed? Sounds like blinders to me.

A rock is the easiest thing to improve on there is.

That was a bit of a joke. God made rocks. Feel free to offer your suggestions for improvement to Him.

Bigger thumb studs would increase weight, cost and catch things in and around the pocket...

Not significantly in any way that would impact the end user if designed and executed properly.

Some like clips tight and some loose. The maker can't please everyone but best to err on the safe, and easy to adjust, side. Who would even consider loosening the screws?! I can't believe you said that.

Hey, you're the one suggesting bending/warping the clip......neither solution seems optional IMHO.

Kershaw designed the knife; they know what they are and don't need you or me to tell them.

Well said - so stop calling them blade stops. Kershaw calls them thumb studs.

You asked for our thoughts and then got all defensive when you got them.

You know, several people have agreed with my assessment.

I apologize as well if I offend you with my discussion.

None taken. We can agree to disagree on some points. No harm, no foul.

 

[jkulysses]

I'm a little confused as to why you would even buy a knife that's primarily a flipper design when you said yourself you don't much care for flippers???? I figured out how to properly open the knife in literally 2 or 3 tries and that was without the assistance of an instructional video.

 

[Rolex John]

I'm a little confused as to why you would even buy a knife that's primarily a flipper design when you said yourself you don't much care for flippers???? I figured out how to properly open the knife in literally 2 or 3 tries and that was without the assistance of an instructional video.

If you watch the video, you'll see the Skyline was my first flipper.

I likely wouldn't have bought it if it were ONLY a flipper. As it turns out, the thumb studs are so poor, it essentially is only a flipper.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I'm sorry this concept doesn't make sense to you. If a knife were designed with no consideration for the user whatsoever it would not, for example, have handles. But knife designers figured out long ago, that users are far more likely to use their product if they provide the user a way to grip the knife and not cut themselves. Thus knife handles are one example of knife designers designing their products to conform to the needs of the user.

Hopefully this now makes sense to you.

that example is terrible.

the first knife designers made knives for themselves, not a secondary sales market.

 

[sharpandsafe]

A very lively debate here!

I just got my Skyline today, and I think it's fantastic for just a bit over $30! It's not perfect though. I really do agree with nutnfancy's opinions, but I also realize that they are just his opinions. I agree with a lot of what John and Thomas are saying too, unfortunately they have been saying it with an air of arrogance that distracts from the substance of what they are saying and offends the sensitive.

To Thomas - I find the Skyline a simple, elegant, well-executed, and well-finished tool

To John - I share your opinion of the "thumb-studs" and the clip, but to me, these are minor grievances at best, especially on a $30 knife.

What Kershaw should probably clarify is that this is strictly a knife for right-handed folks and that the "thumb-stud" works mainly as an aid to fully opening the blade after a failed novice flip. I can open the knife from fully closed with the stud, but it is cumbersome to do so. This knife is a great design for learning to use a flipper!

What I do not like is how tight the clip is (easily adjusted to my liking as it may be), and how extremely rough the G-10 is under the clip - a sure pocket shredder! I would have liked Kershaw to smooth the scale under the clip area. I think this could have been done without adding to the cost of this excellent budget blade.

Thomas, what do you say to this?

I would like to experiment with sanding down the scale under the clip, but I am worried about screwing it up. Is there a source for a replacement scale I can get before I take a dremel to my Skyline?

 

[sharpandsafe]

The studs are first and foremost a blade stop, but can be utilized to open the blade as well.

This is a great, concise statement. I think it should be printed, verbatim, in the specs on the Kershaw website.

 

[Handwrecker]

I would like to experiment with sanding down the scale under the clip, but I am worried about screwing it up. Is there a source for a replacement scale I can get before I take a dremel to my Skyline?

Forget the dremel and just take some sand paper to the area. It should take you all of a minute and it'll be impossible to wreck anything.