A medium bounds for performance : chopping

[Cliff Stamp]

I agree with you that Busses have come with inconsistent edges. I have some that came dullish, but I have some that are the sharpest factory knives I have ever had.

The initial sharpness on the ones I have used were not overly impressive, certainly no where near Spyderco level. That can be seen in the sharpness table and the individual reviews:

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_testing.html#sharpness

The edge geometry is on the acute side for knives of that class, heavy use tactical/survival, significantly more acute than knives like TOP's. Most of mine were as thinner and acute or even less than edges on some Kershaw folders. They are also more acute than the grind Hossom described in the above and they have high flat grinds.

Busse has also made it clear they will custom edge grind to more acute profiles on customer request. It only takes about two minutes on a 1" belt sander to rip the edge down to even eight degrees, I know as I did it. The Busse knives I have used also consistently take and hold the thinnest and most acute edges I have seen. That would be more on topic here than the initial edge configuration.

It is just ugly but very efficient.

Ugly is that weird D2 fighter thing Busse made early on, he must have been drinking with the Dark Ops guys that night. I do not know who snapped him out of the high carbide tactical nonsense but we all owe someone a beer.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Ugly is that weird D2 fighter thing Busse made early on, he must have been drinking with the Dark Ops guys that night. I do not know who snapped him out of the high carbide tactical nonsense but we all owe someone a beer.

-Cliff

I think it is his lust for improvement in design and steel and HT, above and beyond most makers that caused him to snap out of it, not anyone in particular.:thumbup:

If Busse HT'd a cpm3V knife I would buy it over any other CPM3V knife made..... If he HT'd an S30V knife I would take it over any other S30V knife... and so on. Absolutely no one does it better. The punishment that his SRKW D2 knife took I have not ever seen another D2 knife take...

Edges are easy to put on and do how you want. and they are not as important as the product's quality itself.

 

[Kohai999]

...Edges are easy to put on and do how you want. and they are not as important as the product's quality itself.

No, that is very true, Cobalt, but they are important, especially to people that suck at sharpening knives. I saw Cliff go after Kershaw about this subject, recently.

Should you really HAVE to REQUEST a sharp knife from a production company? That is a bit much to ask, IMO, and I for one, do not care for the Zero edge...it IS ugly.

If you read Cliff's statement above mine, he says " Busse is one of the few people who do live demonstrations of crashing the edges on his knives into hard objects and noting the damage is minimal. Hard to debate public emperical evidence."

My point is that if the edge is not all that to begin with, then crashing it into a hard object is not very meaningful in, and of itself. Do you not agree with that?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The punishment that his SRKW D2 knife took I have not ever seen another D2 knife take.

Yeah, hard to believe that was D2. If I had to guess, I would say a very low soak was used, the absolute minimum temperature necessary to get the final hardness after oil+cryo. This would give maximum toughness at a given hardness.

Edges are easy to put on and do how you want. and they are not as important as the product's quality itself.

Yes, assuming they are somewhat close to your optimal profile in thickness. You have to consider personal preference versus mass market. For example, about 0.030" edge thickness is minimum necessary to take heavy batoning from what I have seen. It would not be unreasonable to go up to 0.035" on a heavy fixed blade to give a minimum 25% durability safety then you have to take into account your production variance as well so add that.

The bigger issue I find tends to be on primary grinds which are too low or grinds which are simply off, hollow grinds on large chopper/impact blades for example. Edge thickness is only really a huge issue on small folders, edges are often more than 5 times thicker than necessary for the promoted use of the knives with the angles double or more what is needed. Imagine a bowie with the edge 0.150" thick at 50 degrees per side, that would be a bit of a cause for wonderment, but there are lots of folders which are so overbuilt, that is just silly.

Spyderco in general does a nice job on edge thickness, they go as low as 0.005"/<10 degrees on some folders and in general tend to match the edge configurations to the intended use of the knife. They also tend to use steels which match the roles of the knife well, though are a bit fixated on the high carbide steels, but they of course are selling strong now. It is not like a Calypso Jr. in 420HC would have mass market appeal. I would like to see them come out with some of the Sandvik steels as you can sell those low carbide steels as no one knows really they are basically the same thing, and as well as some high wear cold work steels and some tougher steels for blades like the Manix.

Busse could do a fieldcraft line as well, like you said, it would be of very high quality as their heat treatment and QC is very high. The problem is though he has built a reputation on extreme durability so if he put out a really nice small parang in 12C27M it is likely it would be taken to some concrete blocks. He should start another sister company with such a dedicated viewpoint. I have been suggesting this for a long time though with little responce. I think you need to be more direct, you are closer, hit him in the head with a beer can or some other equally subtle arguement.

-Cliff

 

[Unsub]

Getting back to the original question of the Fiskars hatchet and where more expensive hatchets have an advantage equivalent to their price increase?
I feel with most knives and hatchets that there is a rate where the increase in quality
goes up with the price but soon the price gets farther and farther ahead until you are paying a lot more for a tiny improvement. Some of these improvements will not be just how much wood they can chop but will be balance looks and steel quality.

My problem with the Fiskars is I don't like plastic handled axes. I much prefer a good hickory handle for it's shock absorption qualities but honestly it is mostly about looks and feel. I like the Wetterlings for having a good balance of cost/value in the style I prefer.

Cliff what do you think about the steel in the Byrd knives? Just from playing around with my Crossbill it reminds me of the Sandvic you see in stainless Moras.

Also I get the impression that you feel the high carbide steels are unnecessary and a marketing tool. I would love to learn why you have come to that conclusion?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

My problem with the Fiskars is I don't like plastic handled axes. I much prefer a good hickory handle for it's shock absorption qualities but honestly it is mostly about looks and feel.

Many feel the same, I had similar reservations about the Fiskars but honestly it feels quite nice in hand in that regard, though of course it looks artificial.

Cliff what do you think about the steel in the Byrd knives? Just from playing around with my Crossbill it reminds me of the Sandvic you see in stainless Moras.

Yes, it is the same class, low carbide stainless and Spyderco is doing a decent job by running it fairly hard, tested at 61 HRC, reported by Glesser awhile back.

Also I get the impression that you feel the high carbide steels are unnecessary and a marketing tool. I would love to learn why you have come to that conclusion?

High carbide volume only gives wear resistance, it decreases everything else, corrosion resistance, toughness, grindability and edge stability. Even when it is actually relevant to the performance of a knife, wear resistance is only a part of performance, edges still deform, chip and corrode.

The major influence in cutting ability, and how often a knife has to be sharpened is geometry. Specifically the thinner a blade can be ground the longer it will cut well. The higher the volume of carbides in a steel the thicker the blade has to be ground in order for the edge to be stable, not take damage.

If you want to see just how little wear effects edge retention, start steeling your knives and seeing how much of an effect that makes. All you are doing there is effecting deformation. Notice just how little actual wear is taking place unless you use knives that are exceptionally blunt, <5% optimal sharpness.

Noet again, even in the above with these very low wear steels, there is no significant wear on the edge after about a thousand chops into wood. If these steels were higher in carbide volume the performance would degrade because the edge would start to microchip and it would also be more time consuming to sharpen.

Lots of hype, little actual advantage, they sell well though.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

Cliff, though for the most part I agree with your stance on high carbide steels, I think it would be wise to remember there is a very large segment of the population who could indeed benefit from lots of wear resistance. Lots of people bring me their knives to sharpen, and by then the edges look like butter knives. There is usually also some damage from deformation or such as well, but for the most part the edges are simply worn completely away. Forget about 5% of optimal sharpness- these are more like 0.00000005%. For folks that do not sharpen their own knives, and will continue "trying" to cut with them long past the stage that would horrify a knife nut, a blade that will keep stubbornly cutting at very low sharpness could be a huge improvement.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

For folks that do not sharpen their own knives, and will continue "trying" to cut with them long past the stage that would horrify a knife nut, a blade that will keep stubbornly cutting at very low sharpness could be a huge improvement.

Indeed, however is that the promoted performance and the market being discussed here, especially with high end knives of the competition cutter class. Not really, that is the distinction between hype and information.

I agree, if you do use blades to a very low sharpness then lots of wear is useful. I have indeed seen knives used like you describe where the edge has been worn smooth and round, those are cases where D2 class steels are very useful.

Note however that the steels used in those types of knives are rarely high carbide. Kind of ironic that where they would be of benefit they are not used and where they are then they often degrade performance.

Of course the knives worn smooth are used by tradesmen and such who do not use $500 customs, they use $5 utility blades and you can not make replacement blades for $0.25 out of D2.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

another awesome post for choppers

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496640

 

[Cliff Stamp]

As always, interesting read, for big chopping blades you want medium carbon for lathe martensite, low to no carbides, ferrite strengtheners, yes, sounds familiar.

-Cliff