A reality check for most makers

Hi Guys,

I appreciate you trying to answer Trent's questions. I would, but I have him on Ignore.

I suggest you do the same.

It was pointed out to me by several members that he is not worth the time and aggravation.

Im still busy catching up after the Blade Show.
 
the3monkeys.jpg
 
If you think you have just been dissed, you are dead wrong. You have been given a good piece of advice, if you are smart enough to recognize it. Make of it, what you will.
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I hear the toilet flushing right now!!! hehe But thanks for the fun anyway, seeing the experts here exercising their ego's to boredom, i feel better now and relieved knowing i have been put in my place, NOT! LOL

James
 
metalbender2 said:
blatant trolling.
my counterpoint is simple.
learning from a master knife maker may be faster but is not the only way
I looked at your collection links and saw it was primarily ABS makers. welp heres a reality check for you..... let me quote the father of the ABS Bill Moran
"Moran: "I sold my first knife 59 years ago at the age of 14. I became a full time knifemaker forty years ago in 1960. You see, my father had a dairy farm in Maryland. On the farm we had a blacksmith shop. We heated our houses with coal and used it in a hand crank forge. I learned to make knives so I could have what I wanted in a knife. I wanted to make knives the old way (forged) but no one knew how to do it anymore. No one knew how to heat treat etc. So I used trial and error to make knives, mainly error. I wanted my knives to cut real well."
in other words Bill taught himself.

even though I know Im not on par with ABS master smiths fit and finish yet I've absolutely no interest whatsoever in studying under them. Simply for the reason that I'm not a big fan of the ABS style and the reliance on power tools that many of them espouse, its strictly creative differences mind you. I'm sure they would have alot to share if I wanted to make knives their way.
about the only smith that I WOULD be interested in working with (so far) is Tai Goo, but alas I live on the east coast so itll be a while before I could afford the trip.
so basically that leaves it up to me and my desire to improve my work.
I do indeed know where I need practice and where I need improvement. some of it is knowledge that will take me alot longer to learn on my own and some of it is a lack of tooling that I still need to fabricate. however I look upon this as a creative journey and am enjoying the learning process.
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This is an excellent point, I believe it was Niels Bohr, Physicist on the first atom bomb who said, An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field."
 
I have a fighter incoming from Matt Lamey and decided to go with a copper guard because I wanted something unique other than steel. I never have been fond of brass anyway. I know that Matts work will only increase in value because of his craftsmanship although I would not part with it. I think when you purchase something just for the reason of making a profit is that you should keep in mind what would appeal to the masses. That way you don't limit yourself to a particular market and decreasing your chances of selling it and making the most on it. A friend of mine purchased Les's book on collecting custom knives and says it is very informative and helpfull in making decisions on what to look for. Of course there are other factors involved and timing is one of them. Right now there is a slower economic climate and this effects what the value of things are. The decreased value of housing is a good example of this.
 
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Les Robertson said:
Hi Guys,

I appreciate you trying to answer Trent's questions. I would, but I have him on Ignore.

I suggest you do the same.

It was pointed out to me by several members that he is not worth the time and aggravation.

Im still busy catching up after the Blade Show.
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That's what I thought

I resurrected the thread because there is much talk of me in the Pirates Cove :cool:
Les asked who I was
I told him and had some questions regarding his financial model theories
They are wrong
One other guy also pointed that out
I ask to discuss them in another forum
He declined
Let that be a lesson to anyone who wants to use his Sylvia Browne Business Model

I haven't insulted anyone in here
I won't say "your undergraduate degree is weak"
your lack of "calculus based statistics"
(Algebra works just as well..just takes longer)
your MBA that "I know you don't have"

I may INFER
According to some moderators I am quite apt at it
For a respectable knife purveyor
Les seems to me to insult a lot of people

take a chill pill..talk to you shrink..take a vacation..beat up an old lady at a nursing home...You cannot measure everything on a yardstick.
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I wouldn't say ANGRY
I rarely get angry
Just irked that a knife purveyor feels the need to publicly look down on others for not being as successful as him

I don't take pills
Look what happened to Johnny Cash and Waylon

My shrink thinks it has to do with Reagan being president for the first 1/3 of my life
That in the fact that my dad was a hard core Democrat
She thinks it was a form of rebellion

I live in Santa Barbara
Every time I take a vacation
After about 3 weeks I want to get back home

I don't hit women
If you can findy a grumpy, old man for me to beat up
Send me his REAL NAME and address please
Besides..That's assault and against the law
I try and avoid the DA's office in my older years
Although, I think they like me now
I'm pretty sure I have paid for last 2 Christmas parties with the money they seized:eek:

I try and measure first, if possible
If not
Then I am "just guessing"!!!!

Maybe he's just going to wait several months, then resurrect a long-dead thread, just like you did
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Fine with me
I'll be here

That's it for now all my friends in the Custom Forum
I came in here to learn about Custom Knives
I have learned a lot in the last 6 months or so
I stop by and talk to the people at Nordic Knives every few weeks
They really liked the BF bumper sticker I gave them
Amazingly, 2 of the employees have never heard of BF
They have the Daniel Winkler knife I want as my first custom knife
I need to make some more money off my portfolio though!!
Maybe the CAPM is all wrong :confused:
I'm barely outpacing the S and P 500 these days :(
Don't tell my GF that I am EVEN thinking of paying 1K for a KNIFE!!!!
She got pissed the other week when we had to stay in a Fitzgerald's penthouse suite in LV......


Tom Mayo is on BF!!! :eek::thumbup:
That is the model I want to follow
Crazy Buck Knife Inc. scrilla!!!!!! :thumbup:
Can you tell Buck Knives that they need to make a black matte Kaala knife!!???
I'll buy 2
One for me and one for Bastid
I bet he would look cool with a neck knife;)
 
ptgdvc said:
Lets cut to the chase.

The truth of the matter is that, the work of a majority of custom knife makers, is simply not worth the time and effort to critique, or to collect. That may smart, but if you are flunking lunch on basic techniques, you know it. If you are serious about being taken seriously, master the fundamentals by learning them from an actual Master. You have seen enough Kung Fu movies to know what I am saying is true.

If you think you have just been dissed, you are dead wrong. You have been given a good piece of advice, if you are smart enough to recognize it. Make of it, what you will.

The same fifty top makers get mentioned here on the Forum by the snobby collectors, time and again, for one reason and one reason only. THEY DO THE BEST WORK.

P
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Here I go, and my very first post here too. Oh well.

After I examined the calendar closely to make certain that it was NOT April 1 st, I thought perhaps a reply from the common folk was in order .

First I need to say for the record I am certainly not attempting to steal any
accolades from these "fifty top makers" but I do feel that this is an incorrect statement.

I know that people collect all sorts of items, including all types of knives, and it's what makes collecting interesting . Simply because I would not collect it
does not make it less desirable to another.

Now in regards to makers, I have lived in various locations in the world, and I
am quite certain to anyone's standard that there are makers who craft very
fine, and collectible edged weapons of all types who have never been seen in
the United States of America, have never been a member of, nor interested
in the slightest in the ABS and these are craftsmen whose families in some
cases have been doing work for hundreds of years. Do these talented people
not exist because of that , ahem failing to be ABS members ?

Then there are another entirely different sort of craftsmen, perhaps if you are truly fortunate, you have met one of these individuals. They are in their
"day jobs" typically Armorers or Gunsmiths for our Armed Forces, Federal Agencies, or perhaps a local or state department who create weapons that
are ONLY for those who are sworn dedicated service personnel, they never
typically seek civilain sales, and their work while what most could consider to
be very rugged and not so fancy typically are highly collectible.

And returning back to those ABS members, there are those, who are members
who have not yet achieved a "MS" rating who craft wonderful custom works
of art, infused with their talents, and very soul and neither you, nor anyone else should make derogatory comments on their work.

Perhaps your list of commonly reported fifty are the best. But if we eliminate
the popularity factor, where too many jump onto the this is the latest and
therefore greatest , I would tend to doubt that very seriously.

Trends, styles , all these change . What is found alluring today will be dull and horrible in a decade.

Lets give everyone equal billing, say they each are winners, and let's not make derisive comments about any makers shall we ?

And oh, to anticipate what you may believe, I do NOT have a "top fifty" maker listing but I have my own ideas who makes fine pieces of craftsmanship for their various uses, and perhaps that is a better way to consider makers.
 
hi Meddiver,

Welcome to BF and Jim Cooper's "KUMBAYA" CLUB

Lets give everyone equal billing, say they each are winners, and let's not make derisive comments about any makers shall we ?
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Unfortunately, custom knives....unlike kids soccer, does not give trophies to everyone.

Speaking only for myself, I judge each maker on their own merit and the merit of their work.

Example, I routinely carry the work of many more JS makers than MS makers. Quite frankly many of today's JS makers and newly "minted" MS makers are doing superior work to many established MS makers.

Every show I attend one of my main goals is to find a maker (could be new just a knife maker that I had not heard of before) and establish a business relationship with them.

I do agree with you that popularity can and does overshadow quality with regards to some makers.

Our society is a competitive one. The crux of the issue shows when a maker decides they will enter this competitive market....and sell some of their knives.

Once that line is crossed their work, fair or not is now subject to examination and critique. Quite frankly the critiques that are critical of a makers work, in the long term will help them much more than the "Great Knife Bro" critique will.

Perhaps more than any other forum with regards to custom knives. BF has a very high level of custom knife expertise. Much like making knives this expertise comes only after years of study.
 
Hi Les (and all),

By no means am I blind to the deficiencies of some work. In fact, because of my extensive first-hand, close-up handling, I think I would be a VERY good candidate for some hard-biting commentary.

That said, I also have the ability to look at most any work and judge if the glass is half-full. I try to maintain this perspective.

Each and every person and maker who displays work is a potential client of mine. God forbid if I start ranting about this and that (and I have). Who knows WHO I would piss off... :eek: (Methinks there is a lesson in here, even for those who have suffered college to get a degree--something I have never been priviledged to get. ;))

Anyway, the Kumbaya attitude is an individual choice. Glad it ain't the de-facto standard around here. But, it sure can be refreshing from the bitter realities we have to endure. ;)

Thanks.

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
Anyway, the Kumbaya attitude is an individual choice. Glad it ain't the de-facto standard around here. But, it sure can be refreshing from the bitter realities we have to endure. ;)

Thanks.

Coop
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:thumbup:

Agreed. Theres also a difference between feeling you are allowed to do something and if you should do something. Thats where individual choice comes in. Some people make the choice to offer blunt and emotionless critique because they can, others could but choose a different path for there own reasons. After all, just because we all "can" walk into a biker bar and scream that Harleys are for pussies, doesn't mean its smart or the opinion, no matter how well-thought-out, will be well received.
 
Les Robertson said:
hi Meddiver,

Welcome to BF and Jim Cooper's "KUMBAYA" CLUB



Unfortunately, custom knives....unlike kids soccer, does not give trophies to everyone.

Speaking only for myself, I judge each maker on their own merit and the merit of their work.

Example, I routinely carry the work of many more JS makers than MS makers. Quite frankly many of today's JS makers and newly "minted" MS makers are doing superior work to many established MS makers.

Every show I attend one of my main goals is to find a maker (could be new just a knife maker that I had not heard of before) and establish a business relationship with them.

I do agree with you that popularity can and does overshadow quality with regards to some makers.

Our society is a competitive one. The crux of the issue shows when a maker decides they will enter this competitive market....and sell some of their knives.

Once that line is crossed their work, fair or not is now subject to examination and critique. Quite frankly the critiques that are critical of a makers work, in the long term will help them much more than the "Great Knife Bro" critique will.

Perhaps more than any other forum with regards to custom knives. BF has a very high level of custom knife expertise. Much like making knives this expertise comes only after years of study.
Click to expand...

Thank you Les.

If you do as you say, and meet the makers seeking out the best, then I applaud you for your efforts. And for anyone keeping score, I also agree with your comments re "JS" and those "newly minted" "MS" holders, but that is only in regards to those I have personally seen to make a comparison with others.

And as you say, unlike Kid's soccer, trophies are not given to all. However, some attain trophies, awards, and acclaim outside CONUS , people here don't typically see, or hold their work. Also some, like those working for their fellows
in whatever uniform or agency seek no notice whatsoever, the work is their reward.

My point is simply that regardless of how expert anyone may claim they are,
or knowledge they may have in any subject, unless you have the opportunity
to hold, view, examine, and ultimately judge a maker's work at first hand, not by internet, book, or secondary source, you cannot claim another superior to
them.
 
Hi Med,

Many of those who post here with some regularity....have compared makers work side by side. As such they can and do give a very informed opinion.

I agree with you that those who have not handled the knives and in some cases are only going along with someone else's opinion(s) do a disservice to the makers and fellow collectors when they give their "uniformed" or "parrot" opinion.
 
ptgdvc said:
Lets cut to the chase.

The truth of the matter is that, the work of a majority of custom knife makers, is simply not worth the time and effort to critique, or to collect. That may smart, but if you are flunking lunch on basic techniques, you know it. If you are serious about being taken seriously, master the fundamentals by learning them from an actual Master. You have seen enough Kung Fu movies to know what I am saying is true.

If you think you have just been dissed, you are dead wrong. You have been given a good piece of advice, if you are smart enough to recognize it. Make of it, what you will.

The same fifty top makers get mentioned here on the Forum by the snobby collectors, time and again, for one reason and one reason only. THEY DO THE BEST WORK.

P
Click to expand...
***********************

meddiver said:
Here I go, and my very first post here too. Oh well.

After I examined the calendar closely to make certain that it was NOT April 1 st, I thought perhaps a reply from the common folk was in order .

First I need to say for the record I am certainly not attempting to steal any
accolades from these "fifty top makers" but I do feel that this is an incorrect statement.

I know that people collect all sorts of items, including all types of knives, and it's what makes collecting interesting . Simply because I would not collect it
does not make it less desirable to another.

Now in regards to makers, I have lived in various locations in the world, and I
am quite certain to anyone's standard that there are makers who craft very
fine, and collectible edged weapons of all types who have never been seen in
the United States of America, have never been a member of, nor interested
in the slightest in the ABS and these are craftsmen whose families in some
cases have been doing work for hundreds of years. Do these talented people
not exist because of that , ahem failing to be ABS members ?

Then there are another entirely different sort of craftsmen, perhaps if you are truly fortunate, you have met one of these individuals. They are in their
"day jobs" typically Armorers or Gunsmiths for our Armed Forces, Federal Agencies, or perhaps a local or state department who create weapons that
are ONLY for those who are sworn dedicated service personnel, they never
typically seek civilain sales, and their work while what most could consider to
be very rugged and not so fancy typically are highly collectible.

And returning back to those ABS members, there are those, who are members
who have not yet achieved a "MS" rating who craft wonderful custom works
of art, infused with their talents, and very soul and neither you, nor anyone else should make derogatory comments on their work.

Perhaps your list of commonly reported fifty are the best. But if we eliminate
the popularity factor, where too many jump onto the this is the latest and
therefore greatest , I would tend to doubt that very seriously.

Trends, styles , all these change . What is found alluring today will be dull and horrible in a decade.

Lets give everyone equal billing, say they each are winners, and let's not make derisive comments about any makers shall we ?

And oh, to anticipate what you may believe, I do NOT have a "top fifty" maker listing but I have my own ideas who makes fine pieces of craftsmanship for their various uses, and perhaps that is a better way to consider makers.
Click to expand...

Med, you don't post very often, however when you do yo make a lot of sense. All well said.

I think we participants of this customs and handmades forum at times, may make the mistake in thinking we are more significant then we actually are in the grand scheme of custom knives. example: declaring the top makers, which makers are or are not worthy of critique or collecting. The custom knife world is spread wide beyond this forum.
 
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I've used this twice in the past couple days at BF, so here I go for the third time....:thumbup:



Here's my reaction to this thread re-opening and reading Trent Rock's posts.....
[youtube]gjP3jFzkScY[/youtube]
 
Kevin Jones said:
***********************





I think we participants of this customs and handmades forum at times, may make the mistake in thinking we are more significant then we actually are in the grand scheme of custom knives. example: declaring the top makers, which makers are or are not worthy of critique or collecting. The custom knife world is spread wide beyond this forum.
Click to expand...

Thank You Kevin. I certainly am not attempting to disparage anyone, but I am attempting to make an effort to show that there are many wonderful makers in the world, and as an example if I were to attempt to speak of the
current cabals ideas for "ABS" makers in for example Spain,and attempt to impose those ideas, I would be given a blank look at best, and quite likely be met with hostility.
This forum does seem to represent a wide variety of makers, collectors but it remains a "big frog in a small pond".
 
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