A reality check for most makers

[ptgdvc]

I think it comes down to reading threads with a heavy weight on context.

I don't think theres anything wrong with any of the above...but if its ignored, its easy to read posts and misunderstand motive or context, tone or attitude.

Exactamundo! :thumbup:

I am continually surprised that anyone is actually surprised by this.

This falls under the know your poster rule.

P

 

[Les Robertson]

H Jose,

Again, you have missed the point. I don't sell what are my personal preferences. I sell what the custom knife market is looking for. This is determined by you and all the other collectors.

Makers build a knife and it becomes wildly popular not because of a great advertising campaign. Most makers spend very little on advertising. It is word of mouth more so than any other form of advertising that makes a particular maker and/or knife "Hot".

Whose word of mouth? Collectors.

Successful dealers are more in tune to the market than your average collector. As such they identify trends earlier and become what marketing/sales types like to call "Early Adopters". The result is they are ahead of the curve.

Dealers for the most part, unlike many collectors. Will watch the entire custom knife market and look for opportunities. They will also pay heed to those clients who call up looking for a particular maker or style that many have heard of or don't currently carry their knives.

Here are three examples taken directly from Blade Forums:

1) Steve Gatlin. Coop took a photo of his knives at the 2007 Guild Show and posted that photo here. I contacted Coop and got Steve's contact info. I now carry Steve's knives.

2) Phillip Patton. Phillip posted his work here. Fortunately he has a web site with a lot of photos. I have been buying knives from Phillip for almost a year now.

3) Charles Vestal. His knives were posted here and I contacted him because of those photos posted on Blade Forums.

All three provide quality work at a fair price. This in my experience is a large portion of the formula for success.

Like you and others I enjoy seeing knives posted. I like to read about makers I have never heard of. I make notes of what collectors talk about here and on other internet sites. The success of my Vanguard line of knives is due directly to listening to what the collectors were looking for.

Collectors can buy what they like in the Primary market

Makers can build what they like for the Primary market.

My comments and suggestions are primarily directed at the secondary market.

As you and others have pointed out time after time, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, your opinion of a knife and/or a maker in the secondary market may not be shared. Many of those same people who posted on the forums and told you what a great knife you have. Will be some of the same who would have no interest in your knife should you offer it up for sale or trade.

As I have pointed out, many people take offense to your level of "ignorance" as to just how great a knife is when they are trying to sell or trade it.

Opinions are always interesting.

Edited for addition....Wow we are up to 20 pages on this thread!

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Joss]

I tend to agree with David, with the following caveat: it might be to one collector or dealer's interest to promote someone's work ... but that doesn't mean that what they say is not true.

For example, I have tried to promote Don Fogg's work here. I have quite a few pieces by him, so maybe it helps me when I try to sell them. It might also help me acquire new pieces as people here know of my interest and might contact me directly. Finally, that might make me useful to Don, who might in turn be more inclined to sell me a piece he has on his bench. All those are true. However, it doesn't mean that Don's work doesn't deserve to be promoted.

In the case of a dealer, that is even more true. Let me explain. If a collector is taken by maker X, acquires several pieces, promotes said maker ... and yet the maker ends up being a fad, or disappearing, the collector ends up with an illiquid collection, but presumably something they still enjoy. If a dealer makes the same bad call, then they (1) end up with inventory that is hard to sell and (2) damage their reputation / brand.

The dealers in effect are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they promote a maker that they represent, then the criticism is that they are trying to generate business for themselves. If they promote a maker they don't represent, the criticism is that (1) they are trying to gain this maker's business and (2) they are hypocritical because if they really meant what they say, they would sell this maker's work. (Not to mention the criticism from the represented makers who question why the dealer is promoting another maker instead of them.)

The solution is to actually try to understand the arguments independantly, to think about them rationally (instead of reacting emotionally), and assess whether the argument is true, false, or needs some more thinking. In short, a revolutionary concept which is to judge an idea on its own merits - regardless of who the idea comes from.

 

[David Schott]

Thanks Joss...you said what I completely missed. People can benefit from their opinions/stances but that doesnt make them selfish unless they are forming their opinions based on benefitting from them...

 

[ptgdvc]

In short, a revolutionary concept which is to judge an idea on its own merits - regardless of who the idea comes from.

Joss,

On target and and firing for effect! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

P

 

[Jose Reyes]

Yes, David, good post, Joss. Les, did you mean Brett? I agree with your post as well, however your clientele does not include the entire secondary market. I would think that most serious collectors keep an eye on that as well and if they can beat you to a deal they'll cut you out of the equation. As I said, I don't wish to argue, if you want to respond I will give you the last word. You're able to make a living at this, consider it job or not, that speaks of your ability...:thumbup:

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

Very well said.

Hi Jose,

No I meant Steve Gatlin. I have been working with Brett for 4 years now.

You are right my clientèle does not include the entire secondary market. Nor have I ever said that.

Working at McDonald's is a job.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Jose Reyes]

I guess I have a job then...

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Jose,

As I said, I don't wish to argue, if you want to respond I will give you the last word.

I thought you were going to give me the last word???

As long as you love what you are doing, then Im sure you are happy with your job.

Les

 

[Bastid]

What has bothered me the most in this thread has been some of the rhetoric that is unfounded. I have known Les through other venues and have probably learned more from him than just about anyone else directly and indirectly. Tai has spent a few days in my house. I very much enjoyed the time I spent with him hope to spend more and I learned from him also. I have also learned much from Steven and others. Sometimes I learn from people just getting into the hobby/profession.


There are too many options and variables in our knife world for someone to be "right" all the time for everyone.

It does not matter if we are talking collectors, makers or dealers. With time, homework, study and effort comes the effect that we can be making the "right" decisions for ourselves as makers dealers and collectors. Folks like Les, Steven, Tai are conveying their experience and expertise and they do so with a passion, some see it as ego, but I know that ego plays a much smaller role than many think it does. Much of what we see comes from their desire for people to avoid making missteps that might turn them away from our world. I know I have avoided some mistakes from listening and have taken advantage of the information they have shared in many cases. That does not mean I agree 100% with everything they say, it just means I listen and think about what they say even if I am not in 100% agreement there is something I can take with me from the exchange and learn from it. I would hate to see any more of these folks or others who contribute so much run out of here over petty arguments and disagreements.

Also I think at times people confuse kumbaya with respect. .

As far as Les being a money changer hah, I bet he could be comfortably retired by now if that was his M.O. I know for a fact that he spends a lot of valuable time sharing what he knows and what he has experienced and I could say the same about many, many others in our world. I don't think hanging around on the net is an efficient way for any of us to boost the bottom line so to speak although it helps to varying degrees. We hang out here due to our passion. Each one of us has difference in that passion.

 

[Jose Reyes]

What has bothered me the most in this thread has been some of the rhetoric that is unfounded. I have known Les through other venues and have probably learned more from him than just about anyone else directly and indirectly. Tai has spent a few days in my house. I very much enjoyed the time I spent with him hope to spend more and I learned from him also. I have also learned much from Steven and others. Sometimes I learn from people just getting into the hobby/profession.


There are too many options and variables in our knife world for someone to be "right" all the time for everyone.

It does not matter if we are talking collectors, makers or dealers. With time, homework, study and effort comes the effect that we can be making the "right" decisions for ourselves as makers dealers and collectors. Folks like Les, Steven, Tai are conveying their experience and expertise and they do so with a passion, some see it as ego, but I know that ego plays a much smaller role than many think it does. Much of what we see comes from their desire for people to avoid making missteps that might turn them away from our world. I know I have avoided some mistakes from listening and have taken advantage of the information they have shared in many cases. That does not mean I agree 100% with everything they say, it just means I listen and think about what they say even if I am not in 100% agreement there is something I can take with me from the exchange and learn from it. I would hate to see any more of these folks or others who contribute so much run out of here over petty arguments and disagreements.

Also I think at times people confuse kumbaya with respect. .

As far as Les being a money changer hah, I bet he could be comfortably retired by now if that was his M.O. I know for a fact that he spends a lot of valuable time sharing what he knows and what he has experienced and I could say the same about many, many others in our world. I don't think hanging around on the net is an efficient way for any of us to boost the bottom line so to speak although it helps to varying degrees. We hang out here due to our passion. Each one of us has difference in that passion.

Gus, You are A #1 in my book, once I get my goat ranch off the ground you are free to roam the herd and...<save the rest for the cove =)> I do still believe you need to weigh what you read on these forums but truth will always be truth. I may have bickered with Les but as I say, he does provide a service. Hopefully we can all absorb the info we need and filter out the rest.

 

[Bastid]

Another fact.

This thread has 20 pages for Les, but only 10 for me.

It is a difference of perspective rather than a difference in fact. (also a difference in the settings we like to use).

Hum, 10 pages vs 20 pages and we are both correct. I think there is a parallel there. .

 

[Joss]

This is getting into philosophy, but I reject the idea that truth is subjective. There is a truth, an objective truth, and it can often (but not always) be identified by the correct use of our senses and reason - and that's it.

 

[peterinct]

What has bothered me the most in this thread has been some of the rhetoric that is unfounded. I have known Les through other venues and have probably learned more from him than just about anyone else directly and indirectly. Tai has spent a few days in my house. I very much enjoyed the time I spent with him hope to spend more and I learned from him also. I have also learned much from Steven and others. Sometimes I learn from people just getting into the hobby/profession.


There are too many options and variables in our knife world for someone to be "right" all the time for everyone.

It does not matter if we are talking collectors, makers or dealers. With time, homework, study and effort comes the effect that we can be making the "right" decisions for ourselves as makers dealers and collectors. Folks like Les, Steven, Tai are conveying their experience and expertise and they do so with a passion, some see it as ego, but I know that ego plays a much smaller role than many think it does. Much of what we see comes from their desire for people to avoid making missteps that might turn them away from our world. I know I have avoided some mistakes from listening and have taken advantage of the information they have shared in many cases. That does not mean I agree 100% with everything they say, it just means I listen and think about what they say even if I am not in 100% agreement there is something I can take with me from the exchange and learn from it. I would hate to see any more of these folks or others who contribute so much run out of here over petty arguments and disagreements.

Also I think at times people confuse kumbaya with respect. .

As far as Les being a money changer hah, I bet he could be comfortably retired by now if that was his M.O. I know for a fact that he spends a lot of valuable time sharing what he knows and what he has experienced and I could say the same about many, many others in our world. I don't think hanging around on the net is an efficient way for any of us to boost the bottom line so to speak although it helps to varying degrees. We hang out here due to our passion. Each one of us has difference in that passion.

Excellent post Gus. Perhaps you have some people on "ignore" yielding 10 pages instead of 20? I see 20 also.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[thombrogan]

This is getting into philosophy, but I reject the idea that truth is subjective. There is a truth, an objective truth, and it can often (but not always) be identified by the correct use of our senses and reason - and that's it.

Check your premises, Joss. A contradiction is not being made. Each participant has different values, perceptions, and experiences and makes their individual judgements accordingly.

Excellent post Gus. Perhaps you have some people on "ignore" yielding 10 pages instead of 20? I see 20 also.

Just as custom collectors do not select "default" knives, it appears our super moderating friend has customized his view from the default of 20 posts per page to 40 posts per page. This upgrade; complete with bark mammoth scales; yields 10 pages.

 

[hardheart]

mods can't put people on ignore.

nyah nyah

 

[RWS]

Whatta thread! This custom forum place has gotten real ugly over the past couple years.

I think a lot this crap is caused by a handful of folks wanting to assert themselves as the so-called "experienced" collector guys or the "expert" knife seller/dealer guy so they can help "lead the way" into the next challenging chapter of the ever evolving knife collecting hobby so as to "create new markets" and "shape existing markets" that will benefit all mankind forever and ever. :barf:

Here's what you do...it's pretty simple.

If you're a collector, buy the knife you like. If you're so caught up in worrying about the money you're spending, stay away from customs....that is, unless of course you can get to a knife show on Thursday night and buy up all the hot maker's inventory at a discount like some of the purveyors use to do, leaving the hot makers with an empty table on Friday......otherwise, invest in a tax free mutual fund.

AND, If you're a purveyor, we know you're in it to maximize your return on the capital you've invested, so you should try and "shape the market" while "creating new niche market opportunities" with your alphas and your betas(while throwing in a couple regression analysis' here and there for kicks don't forget) by reminding everyone how brilliant you are in the industry while telling them what they should like and what they shouldn't like....yavolt mein fuhrer.....so you can help them make the "right" decisions. :thumbup:

Man, this place is becoming worse than the Political Forum.

BTW, I like giraffes and one day when all the giraffes are extinct due to global warming and all the race riots, you'll wish you still had that G bone handled knife you were told to get rid of.

 

[Les Robertson]

RWS:

If you're a collector, buy the knife you like. If you're so caught up in worrying about the money you're spending, stay away from customs....that is, unless of course you can get to a knife show on Thursday night and buy up all the hot maker's inventory at a discount like some of the purveyors use to do, leaving the hot makers with an empty table on Friday......otherwise, invest in a tax free mutual fund.

Man where have you been. I expected to see you on the first page. Crying your usual "It's not fair the dealers get all the knives from the hot makers!"

Followed with..."I know I could have called the maker before the show, or got their early the first day. But I want to see all the knives, take my time and then....maybe just maybe buy a knife."

I know it isn't fair that the makers don't wait for you to make an appearance, hold the knife you want until you see the whole show.

Sniff, sniff. I feel your pain. Sometimes the "hot" makers tell me I have to wait until the second day of the show to maybe...just maybe get one of their knives.

I have told you this before, as you like to blame the dealers. NOT A FRIGGING KNIFE CAN BE SOLD BEFORE...DURING....OR AFTER THE SHOW UNLESS THE MAKER SELLS IT.

The "Hot" makers tables are empty....because the MAKERS sell the knives before the show opens.

Why do they sell them??? Because they enjoy the effect that a positive cash flow has on their bottom line. You would think as a CPA you would understand that.

Stop buying custom knives, invest in Carbon Offsets and buy up all the Giraffe bone you can get your hands on. Al Gore will be smiling all the way to the bank.

Post what you like but stop crying year after year about you not getting knives because of the evil dealers getting the knives before you do. Or at least place the blame for your "Problem" with those who cause it...the makers.

It must be nice to be able to blame others for your problems.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[canineforge]

100 percent

Riad, I am surprised the moderators didn't hop down your throat for such a short post on this thread! (I do agree with David's post).

Some of this 'heavy' stuff is one reason I looked for something outside of the financial markets to do some investing in. If you must, buy. If you buy, try to buy right. And, most importantly;

Enjoy the pleasures you choose.

- Joe

 

[RWS]

www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com[/QUOTE]

Post what you like but stop crying year after year about you not getting knives because of the evil dealers getting the knives before you do. Or at least place the blame for your "Problem" with those who cause it...the makers.

You and I have gotten into it in the past about this topic which is why, in a joking way, I brought it up again.

I don't come in here with an agenda of becoming everyone's leader in knife collecting knowledge and I sure won't tell you or anyone else here what to buy and what not to buy or how to run your business. I'm just not that pretentious.

You seem to have no problem doing it because you are that pretentious. All your extremely loooooooooong-winded posts is evidence of that.

As I said before, you're in it for the money. That's your first priority and eventhough there's nothing wrong with that, you're motivations are different from the average collector, IMO.

I'm in it for the love of collecting. That comes first for me, not money.

As far as advice is concerned, mine is as good as yours....worthless.....although, yours will carry more weight to those you try and impress with your knowledge, which is substantial, but most of what you post is motivated by an overwhelming underlying desire to make money and nothing but rhetoric, IMO.

It seems to me that a couple people here, in a place that use to be pretty fun, want to be our influential knife collecting "leaders" and that's too bad, IMO. I don't need a leader. I've already got one at home....my wife.