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A Spyderco Pikal?
- Thread starter Loki
- Start date
A spyderco pikal folder would be excellent.
My memory is fading, so forgive me if this has already been said before.
Strong lock, titanium framelock would be cool or compression lock.
Dual liners if not a framelock. G10 handles or titanium with some sort of texturing for grip.
Clip that can be moved into all four positions would be awesome.
S30V blade or VG10. Either would be cool.
Spyderhole ofcourse. The position of the hole should look something like it does on the Bob Lum Tanto folder. The pronounced hump on the Bob Lum would be nigh perfect.
If you can't give the folder all four clip positions then it must have tip-up. That's vital.
Handle should definitely allow thumb capping. Like it was said before, not everybody uses it but it's an important feature to have.
Point configuration should be what Southnarc said. On or below the centerline of the knife.
That should just about do it.
I'll take two as well if you make one like that, Sal.
My memory is fading, so forgive me if this has already been said before.
Strong lock, titanium framelock would be cool or compression lock.
Dual liners if not a framelock. G10 handles or titanium with some sort of texturing for grip.
Clip that can be moved into all four positions would be awesome.
S30V blade or VG10. Either would be cool.
Spyderhole ofcourse. The position of the hole should look something like it does on the Bob Lum Tanto folder. The pronounced hump on the Bob Lum would be nigh perfect.
If you can't give the folder all four clip positions then it must have tip-up. That's vital.
Handle should definitely allow thumb capping. Like it was said before, not everybody uses it but it's an important feature to have.
Point configuration should be what Southnarc said. On or below the centerline of the knife.
That should just about do it.
I'll take two as well if you make one like that, Sal.
Sal,
As the owner of several higher-end Spydercos, I'd love to see a dedicated Pikal folder. I've always been impressed with your knives quality vs. price, and a solid folder with a substantial locking mechanism would be a welcome addition. Southnarc has listed the vital dimensions concisely for you. Be assured that I, as well as many students, would buy such a design.
Edited to add: a matching trainer would also sell very well.
Thanks,
Lee Aldridge
Head Instructor
Reality Based Fighting Concepts
www.fightingconcepts.com
As the owner of several higher-end Spydercos, I'd love to see a dedicated Pikal folder. I've always been impressed with your knives quality vs. price, and a solid folder with a substantial locking mechanism would be a welcome addition. Southnarc has listed the vital dimensions concisely for you. Be assured that I, as well as many students, would buy such a design.
Edited to add: a matching trainer would also sell very well.
Thanks,
Lee Aldridge
Head Instructor
Reality Based Fighting Concepts
www.fightingconcepts.com
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 1,710
Joe Talmadge said:
Blade opening and transitions are something I asked Ray Floro about with my Chinook II. He just recommended that I change the clip to tip-up, blade-opening-forward carry so that the blade is pulled out, snapped open in reverse grip although immediately in the hand in edge-out. One can then easily change it to edge-in without any special dexterity.
ThinkOfTheChildren said:
Maybe they aren't ideal, but "not good" might be a little extreme. I think if Ray thought it was ill-suited, he would have said so. Perhaps the loss of ripping ability with the curved edge is mitigated a little by the nice angle the point is at in striking.
If we meet in person (or I ever get better with photography) I could show you how the CII fits in my hand. That's why I had said YMMV: the CII didn't fit one of my classmate's larger hands as well in the same grip. My hands are small enough that I'm holding it farther back along the curve so my wrist isn't having to compensate for any funny angle. The tip is in line with the bottom, but there's just more belly (some of it combo-edged) below that line.
Also, if you look at Ray's own knife design, it doesn't look wharncliffy at all. It's more like a Tops Tracker shape ... sort of. With that said, I know he likes the clinch-pick, too.
donutsrule (a complete and total neophyte in all of this, with a Yojimbo on order for the last 12 months, and would probably buy a pikal-optimized spydie, too)
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2003
- Messages
- 58
Sal,
First thanks for taking the time to ask about the Paka/Pikal knife.
Either term is correct, Pakal is the correct term in the Filipino Martial Arts, and Pikal is the term generally used by people in the United States.
Like many on this thread I am an edged weapon trainer and train students in the use of the pakal grip.
I believe the demand for this knife has grown as has the awareness of the advantages of the blade configuration, edged in/point down.
There are two products I see as in demand, one is a dedicated pakal knife the other a knife that can comfortably be used in a pakal grip. I see the second as far more realistic a goal as it can be used both as general knife and pakal grip knife.
The first design issue should be to look at blades/handle configurations that do not rule out pakal grip and then move on from there.
Opening I see as less an issue as the enduser can manipulate the knife to achieve the desired grip. In fact I would rather not see a Pakal only grip, something that opens tip up woudl be generally of more use.
Of course a fixed blade would would solve many of these issues, but for legal reasons, and ease of carry use a folder would be better.
I gave it some thought and if it were mine, I would incorporate a symetrically curved handle such as the following it would work both pakal and traditional:
Forgive the term, but this "waved" handle would suit the needs of both pakal and traditional grip.
What does everyone else her ethink of this design?
oh to be more specific about the design the spyderhol eopening would be over the flat part of the handle not the concave section.
Marc Scott
marc@stick-and-knife
www.controlled-tactics.com
First thanks for taking the time to ask about the Paka/Pikal knife.
Either term is correct, Pakal is the correct term in the Filipino Martial Arts, and Pikal is the term generally used by people in the United States.
Like many on this thread I am an edged weapon trainer and train students in the use of the pakal grip.
I believe the demand for this knife has grown as has the awareness of the advantages of the blade configuration, edged in/point down.
There are two products I see as in demand, one is a dedicated pakal knife the other a knife that can comfortably be used in a pakal grip. I see the second as far more realistic a goal as it can be used both as general knife and pakal grip knife.
The first design issue should be to look at blades/handle configurations that do not rule out pakal grip and then move on from there.
Opening I see as less an issue as the enduser can manipulate the knife to achieve the desired grip. In fact I would rather not see a Pakal only grip, something that opens tip up woudl be generally of more use.
Of course a fixed blade would would solve many of these issues, but for legal reasons, and ease of carry use a folder would be better.
I gave it some thought and if it were mine, I would incorporate a symetrically curved handle such as the following it would work both pakal and traditional:
Forgive the term, but this "waved" handle would suit the needs of both pakal and traditional grip.
What does everyone else her ethink of this design?
oh to be more specific about the design the spyderhol eopening would be over the flat part of the handle not the concave section.
Marc Scott
marc@stick-and-knife
www.controlled-tactics.com
I think if this is done, the other thing that is a must, is to have a design that will suit both "pikal camps"... as I have notived there seems to be two approaches to this method.
One, the straight forward and close method ALA SouthNarc, which uses locked wrist thrusting - and the more extended range some use, where the wrist is "broken", canted, towards the end of the thrust, to keep the point well lined up for a longer range strike.
Personally, I dont like "breaking" the wrist like that, and a blade that allows for that more than for locked-wrist thrusting, wont work for me (and others who do pikal with a locked wrist) - from what I have seen, this is generally a blade with a higher point, on center line or above it, instead of a point lined up below centerline, but still above or right on a straight line forward from the bottom of the bolster. Such as Ray Floro's design, or designs like the Chinook, which others have mentioned as potentials...
But, it would seem that a blade with the point between center line and bottom line (straight line forward from bolster) would work for all parties interested, without a real loss - where-as about half of us, or maybe more, would be left still wanting with a blade with a higher point.
Also, I think something to consider in terms of a folder is that one of the biggest advantages of edge-in with a folding knife is that given the construction of the average folding knife, using it with the edge reversed does not work directly against the lock mechanism, as edge-out does - the natural arc of the thrust puts a lot of pressure on the spine in edge-out, which works the blade as a lever against the lock, with edge-in, pressure goes against the edge and thus against the blade-stop/stop pin... if making a pikal dedicated folder, I think that needs to be retained... pressure against the blade during the thrust, or when shearing, needs to push it intot he open position even harder, not pust it against the lock - so making a standard folder, that simply had the edge where the spine is on any other knife, only fully contained within the handle, wont work... it needs to be a normal orientation, just the correct blade and handle shape to be held, essentially, backwards... with comfort and security.
I still say, I'd rather have a handle that was 75% oriented for pikal, and pikal (or edge reversed lets say) alone, but that still had that 25% wiggle room so it would be comfortable in other grips if absolutely needed.
Look at the Kerambit... it works for pretty much just one way of holding it, or two if you include forward grip - it obviously excludes use in any fashion except pretty much what it was designed for - I dont think we should be afraid of having a pikal dedicated blade that is truly that, pikal dedicated.
If I wanted something that worked in all grips, I'd get a SOG Pentagon folder, and so would a lot of other people... this needs to stand out from the crowd more and say "This is what I am, for this purpose"... I'd rather have a tool designed to do one thing, than one designed to do a multitude, because history shows that multi-purpose tools end up very often being only mediocre at each of their intended tasks, but single-purpose tools, made and designed with one thing in mind, usually end up doing that one thing pretty darn well. Look at the Spyderco Kerambit, its like that, no?
One, the straight forward and close method ALA SouthNarc, which uses locked wrist thrusting - and the more extended range some use, where the wrist is "broken", canted, towards the end of the thrust, to keep the point well lined up for a longer range strike.
Personally, I dont like "breaking" the wrist like that, and a blade that allows for that more than for locked-wrist thrusting, wont work for me (and others who do pikal with a locked wrist) - from what I have seen, this is generally a blade with a higher point, on center line or above it, instead of a point lined up below centerline, but still above or right on a straight line forward from the bottom of the bolster. Such as Ray Floro's design, or designs like the Chinook, which others have mentioned as potentials...
But, it would seem that a blade with the point between center line and bottom line (straight line forward from bolster) would work for all parties interested, without a real loss - where-as about half of us, or maybe more, would be left still wanting with a blade with a higher point.
Also, I think something to consider in terms of a folder is that one of the biggest advantages of edge-in with a folding knife is that given the construction of the average folding knife, using it with the edge reversed does not work directly against the lock mechanism, as edge-out does - the natural arc of the thrust puts a lot of pressure on the spine in edge-out, which works the blade as a lever against the lock, with edge-in, pressure goes against the edge and thus against the blade-stop/stop pin... if making a pikal dedicated folder, I think that needs to be retained... pressure against the blade during the thrust, or when shearing, needs to push it intot he open position even harder, not pust it against the lock - so making a standard folder, that simply had the edge where the spine is on any other knife, only fully contained within the handle, wont work... it needs to be a normal orientation, just the correct blade and handle shape to be held, essentially, backwards... with comfort and security.
I still say, I'd rather have a handle that was 75% oriented for pikal, and pikal (or edge reversed lets say) alone, but that still had that 25% wiggle room so it would be comfortable in other grips if absolutely needed.
Look at the Kerambit... it works for pretty much just one way of holding it, or two if you include forward grip - it obviously excludes use in any fashion except pretty much what it was designed for - I dont think we should be afraid of having a pikal dedicated blade that is truly that, pikal dedicated.
If I wanted something that worked in all grips, I'd get a SOG Pentagon folder, and so would a lot of other people... this needs to stand out from the crowd more and say "This is what I am, for this purpose"... I'd rather have a tool designed to do one thing, than one designed to do a multitude, because history shows that multi-purpose tools end up very often being only mediocre at each of their intended tasks, but single-purpose tools, made and designed with one thing in mind, usually end up doing that one thing pretty darn well. Look at the Spyderco Kerambit, its like that, no?
Hello to All,
I think this is rather exciting that Sal Glesser have asked us our thoughts on a dedicated reverse grip knife...
I actually had correspondence with Peter Jhones (Spyderco R&D) last year asking if I could submit a design for Spyderco's evaluation. I still have to submit a design..
It would have been a design specifically addressing the reverse grip (edge in) configuration.
I think the bottom line question for Spyderco would be......."Will this design sell!?!?".
My short answer would be ABSOLUTELY!!!!
Having done numerous seminars in the USA and to Special Forces personnel in Korea....and of course the Australian Military............the acceptance of this grip has been outstanding.
Of course, SOUTHNARC has been advocating this method for a while.......and we all know his reputable experience. His knife designs are as close to perfect as they can be.
From a self defence point of view.......the "ripping and clawing" effect that the "edge in" hold allows.....gives excellent power and strength to the cuts. Even small stature and weak students can get remarkable power with this grip.
Unlike the "edge out" grip.......the "edge in" affords great reach as well...........Heck, if you look at animals, ALL the clawing and ripping is done TOWARDS the body.
From a utilitarian point of view........watch butchers try and cut through a difficult part of meat. They will hold it in reverse grip, EDGE IN and will pull the cut towards themselves.
For emergency personnel......cutting binds or rope off "patients and victims"......this grip would be optimal in performance.
As an emergency ICE AWL......the edge in gives purchase when ramming the knife in ice.
Also.......in forward grip......the blade will then me oriented "blade upwards"......just look at professions where they need to cut rope, or packaging binds........all edge up.
I think the ENTIRE Spyderco range can be easily converted to this method of holding the knife..............JUST TURN ALL THE HANDLES UP SIDE DOWN.
Whatever comes out.....I'm sure if I carried a heap of them in my seminars........they will sell easily.....
Now.......I should mail that design to Peter Jhones
But from the sounds of all the contributions here in the forum.......I think a great design is about to be given birth
I think this is rather exciting that Sal Glesser have asked us our thoughts on a dedicated reverse grip knife...
I actually had correspondence with Peter Jhones (Spyderco R&D) last year asking if I could submit a design for Spyderco's evaluation. I still have to submit a design..
It would have been a design specifically addressing the reverse grip (edge in) configuration.
I think the bottom line question for Spyderco would be......."Will this design sell!?!?".
My short answer would be ABSOLUTELY!!!!
Having done numerous seminars in the USA and to Special Forces personnel in Korea....and of course the Australian Military............the acceptance of this grip has been outstanding.
Of course, SOUTHNARC has been advocating this method for a while.......and we all know his reputable experience. His knife designs are as close to perfect as they can be.
From a self defence point of view.......the "ripping and clawing" effect that the "edge in" hold allows.....gives excellent power and strength to the cuts. Even small stature and weak students can get remarkable power with this grip.
Unlike the "edge out" grip.......the "edge in" affords great reach as well...........Heck, if you look at animals, ALL the clawing and ripping is done TOWARDS the body.
From a utilitarian point of view........watch butchers try and cut through a difficult part of meat. They will hold it in reverse grip, EDGE IN and will pull the cut towards themselves.
For emergency personnel......cutting binds or rope off "patients and victims"......this grip would be optimal in performance.
As an emergency ICE AWL......the edge in gives purchase when ramming the knife in ice.
Also.......in forward grip......the blade will then me oriented "blade upwards"......just look at professions where they need to cut rope, or packaging binds........all edge up.
I think the ENTIRE Spyderco range can be easily converted to this method of holding the knife..............JUST TURN ALL THE HANDLES UP SIDE DOWN.
Whatever comes out.....I'm sure if I carried a heap of them in my seminars........they will sell easily.....
Now.......I should mail that design to Peter Jhones
But from the sounds of all the contributions here in the forum.......I think a great design is about to be given birth
- Joined
- Oct 17, 1998
- Messages
- 1,008
I would be interrested in a knife like this if it could also be use as a utility folder. So, I have an excuse to wear it. I also think that the knife you use the most is the one you are most familiar with and know the best. And that is for most of us our utility knife.
Interresting discusion by the way.
JD
Interresting discusion by the way.
JD
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2002
- Messages
- 53
I would buy at least two live blades (and trainers) if the project becomes a reality. I really like marcdscott's handle design, I actually drew a very similar one myself a while ago and made a wooden one. Very comfortable in pakal and the regular forward grip, but also useable in other grips.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2001
- Messages
- 583
I think it safe to say, that sooner or later, a knife production company will produce a "pikal folder".
Just look at recent patterns of knife development. Take the kerambit, for instance: Ancient ethnic design and method, expressed in modern fixed blade, gains new awareness. Modern instruction methods such as video and seminars help to build a strong user body. The call goes out for folder kerambits ( I'll set aside issues of design/method compromises for this illustration ); that call is answered, and soon there several production folding kerambits. ( I'll also set aside controversies who "who did what..... first" )
Even Bram Frank's Gunting saw a inverse effect. Unique folder, in conjuction with energetic instructors using modern communication, create a growing user body, and drive the demand of fixed blade versions. ( setting aside Gunting controversies, alas ).
Kerambit and Gunting are well driven by modern instruction and interaction, reaching a growing audience, and increasing the demand for both fixed and folding blades.
Pikal, or Pakal is on the same track. Fixed blade designs have been made. The "drive energies" of the method is out there. We'll know it has arrived when the controversies overwhelm and distract. ( already prepared to ignore those controversies ).
There will be several knife companies offering Pikal folders, in due time. But design and execution of the optimal model will have the Lion's share in sales.
Just look at recent patterns of knife development. Take the kerambit, for instance: Ancient ethnic design and method, expressed in modern fixed blade, gains new awareness. Modern instruction methods such as video and seminars help to build a strong user body. The call goes out for folder kerambits ( I'll set aside issues of design/method compromises for this illustration ); that call is answered, and soon there several production folding kerambits. ( I'll also set aside controversies who "who did what..... first" )
Even Bram Frank's Gunting saw a inverse effect. Unique folder, in conjuction with energetic instructors using modern communication, create a growing user body, and drive the demand of fixed blade versions. ( setting aside Gunting controversies, alas ).
Kerambit and Gunting are well driven by modern instruction and interaction, reaching a growing audience, and increasing the demand for both fixed and folding blades.
Pikal, or Pakal is on the same track. Fixed blade designs have been made. The "drive energies" of the method is out there. We'll know it has arrived when the controversies overwhelm and distract. ( already prepared to ignore those controversies ).
There will be several knife companies offering Pikal folders, in due time. But design and execution of the optimal model will have the Lion's share in sales.
If Spyderco can sell 10,000 Guntings, moving a pikal folder will be easy in comparison. Of course, since we're talking about a defensive blade, MBC rated locks and trainers are obligatory. For me, I'm all about function over form. I'm more intrigued with the idea of a plastic handled, metal clipped knife in the Delica/Endura mode than compression-locked, titanium and G10 wunderkinds, but, of course, I'll buy both.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
SouthNarc said:
Perfect! Can't wait to see it. I'm not advanced at knife work, but know a thing or two about knife design subtleties for performance, feel free to bounce ideas off me if you're looking for a soundboard.
I think you've hit the high points -- if it can work for both the "Ray camp" and "Southnarc camp", we're golden. That probably means a point at centerline or not too far below. Hopefully that means very little belly, I think both camps can be happy with that. Other than that, a rock solid lock design is important, and that means avoiding liner locks (general flakiness) and lockbacks (fingers engage lock in pakal).
Other important features IMO: useable in regular forward grip for utility work so don't get too fancy on the blade shape or handle shape. And a high spyderco hole for easiest deployment/opening.
Looking forward to it in any case.
Joe
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,666
Hi. Well, obviously there is some interest. Some more questions;
is the tip best in line with the "warncliffe" curve? or is the tip best if raised from the reverse curve like the Shabaria?
What is the maximum blade width? What is optimum?
SouthNarc, I would love to see your video.
Sal Glesser
820 Spyderco way
Golden, CO 80403
Some have suggested a framelock or what we call a "Chris Reeve style integral linerlock". We cnnot get MBC lock strength form a linerlock or a framelock. Is it more impoortant to have the framelock or the MBC lock strength?
thanx much for the discussion, input and support.
sal
is the tip best in line with the "warncliffe" curve? or is the tip best if raised from the reverse curve like the Shabaria?
What is the maximum blade width? What is optimum?
SouthNarc, I would love to see your video.
Sal Glesser
820 Spyderco way
Golden, CO 80403
Some have suggested a framelock or what we call a "Chris Reeve style integral linerlock". We cnnot get MBC lock strength form a linerlock or a framelock. Is it more impoortant to have the framelock or the MBC lock strength?
thanx much for the discussion, input and support.
sal
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2003
- Messages
- 58
I like the Shabaria blade myself.
Marc
Marc
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 1,710
marcdscott said:I gave it some thought and if it were mine, I would incorporate a symetrically curved handle such as the following it would work both pakal and traditional:
When I look at this shape, I see Jessica Rabbit. :footinmou
SouthNarc said:
Outstanding! I'm in for one.
Sal, if I had my druthers, I'd opt for lock strength (and resistance to release when gripped as intended) over picking any specific lock style.