A Spyderco Pikal?

Sal, Russell at MDTactical has a DVD shipping overnight as we speak so you should get it by tommorow afternoon. I think after you watch it alot of the design parameters will become clear. I'm really interested in what you think as a designer after you watch the vid and see what we're all talking about.

I think that the Shabaria blade would probably be ideal perhaps with the tip raised up a bit. It's pretty optimal as is and would work well if we could give the entire blade that upward offset.

As far as the lock goes we'd all want the strongest one that Spyderco does, since this is for a defensive folder.

We really appreciate your interest in this project since all the guys have been hankering for a pikal folder for quite some time.
 
Forgive my ignorance, Sal, but why isn't the frame lock MBC rated? The harder it's gripped, the stronger it's supposed to lock.
 
I'll come out of "lurk mode" for this one Sal.
I've seen S'Narcs material and I think it's solid.
I know Spyderco quality. I would definately add my vote to seeing a Spyderco Pakal knife.
 
For me, max length not much longer than 5", but at least 4".
Width, as wide as you want as long as the tip is strong yet capable of easy piercing. Wider blade equates wider woundchannel(optimal).
I'd rather not have a tip that drops far from the centerline of the handle's centerline axis. It's not necessary to drop it, and it shortens reach by a slight bit to do so.
In my training, I've noticed that in pakal, tip performance and position are more of a factor than edge configuration. If you hit with the tip in pakal, the edge is definitely going to slash out regardless of edge shape. What's optimal? It'd most likely be different for everyone. I can appreciate the straighter, simpler edge formats over a radical 's' sweep like the Shabaria, for pakal. In forward grip, almost any blade shape will work for PTK work.


btw, the Temperance fixed has an excellent blade format for pakal, but it is
a little too angled for comfortable grip orientation in pakal(for me).

take care,
Ken
 
Sal Glesser said:
Some have suggested a framelock or what we call a "Chris Reeve style integral linerlock". We cnnot get MBC lock strength form a linerlock or a framelock. Is it more impoortant to have the framelock or the MBC lock strength?

sal
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Lock strenght, absolutely! No doubt about it.

I'm sure you're gonna like SouthNarc's instructional DVD.
 
I am definitley in for atleast one knife and a trainer.

Everything I could suggest has been suggested. So I'll just sit back and wait for ya'll to get mine built. :D ;)
 
I must say that this is the part of the industry that I enjoy most. I really appreciate the passion.

SouthNarc, thanx much for the video, I'm looking forward to the education.

SouthNarc, or really any one else. If you have interest to share design features, or even whole designs, I would be honored. I cannot make any promises or even offer return, other than to learn from them and consider all of the features of each design.

Please feel free to communicate with me for any particular proposals.

I think a nice design can be achieved. I'm a stickler for detail, but I believe we can deliver a highly functional piece.

Hi Eda-Koppo. The framelock, done right is secure and reliable. When we break them, the weak link in ultimate lock strength seems to be the "cut out" portion at the rear of the spring. We can get MBC lock strength from our Cricket, but it is a very small blade. MBC rated lock would be 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade. On a 4" blade, I would want 800 inch/lbs of lock strength. This will take 2 full liners, hardened. I think it would be done with a compression lock like the Gunting or the ball bearing lock.

Using the D'Allara, I was able to carry tip up, edge forward. draw (hand behind handle), inertial down, close hand. ended up with pikal grip, took about a second & a half.

Blade thickness? best grind?

thanx again,

sal
 
I'd suggest a very thin ground blade, whatever the material and actual grid of the blade, hollow, or flat.

I'm not sure of what grind would be best, that is something I don't really know about, but making the edge as thin as possible for minimal drag would be my preference.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Using the D'Allara, I was able to carry tip up, edge forward. draw (hand behind handle), inertial down, close hand. ended up with pikal grip, took about a second & a half.
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Yes, I would agree that's probably the fastest manual method of deployment into pikal grip. For that reason, it would seem fitting that a Spyderco pikal folder have an ambi pocket clip (and of course be tip-up).

Regarding thickness and grind, I agree that a thin blade is best. Whether it's hollow or flat ground, however, I know that Spyderco can produce a scary edge for it. I have yet to meet a Spyderco with an edge that was too thick.

I think any of the blade steels that Spyderco currently uses would be a fine choice and there should certainly be G-10 handle scales.

I think it should be as light in the hand as possible without sacrificing MBC strength.
 
Sal,

Disclaimer: I'm a pikal noob. But ever since I discovered SouthNarc's material and fixed blade knives from Shivworks, I've been trying to figure out how to do a folder.

As others have noted, the biggest problem is getting it into action without a big chance of fumbling. I think you can do it.

This may sound crazy, but the knives I've been doodling are setup so that the blade is completely shielded by the scales. ***That's because the cutting edge comes out first.*** The unsharpened spine of the knife is on the "wrong" side. That's right, if you aren't careful, you'll cut yourself.

But, with the knife clipped to your pocket, tip up, opening side forward, all you have to do is draw it, and then do an inertial opening so the blade comes down and it is only a very slight grip change before you have a good solid purchase. If the lock fails, you don't get cut.

I believe I've seen double edged folders before, so there is some precedent for having an edge coming out at you. (I'm thinking of the dozier thorne, the sog folding pentagon, and that boker dagger thing, although I'm not sure if they actually sell all of those factory sharpened now).

Other than that,
- I'd want the dimensions as specified by SouthNarc.
- I'd like to have it G10 (a friendly color like blue) in an aggressive grippy pattern.
- A compression lock
- An option of a low ride clip - wire? - I have mixed feeling about this. Because when you draw it, you need to have your thumb and forefinger further toward the pivot so that you can do the inertial opening with ease.
- A cost affective trainer (please don't make me neuter a >$100 knife)
- A modified type of wharncliffe blade
- A squared or angled area to cap it with my thumb
- I'm obviously looking for a dedicated folder for edge in-reverse grip. Other standard folders work fine for hammer grip-edge up. I think that's what DeBethencourt taught. I can carry a delica on my weak side for that. And hey, if the kerambit guys can have a dedicated folder... :)

A note about the Chinook II - I don't like it for pikal because my ring finger sits right on the lock. With not even a boye dent, I can compress it a good deal when I have a death grip on it.

I handled the yojimbo at blade. I like it, but It didn't feel right in pikal *for me*.

Final thought - It would be interesting to get SouthNarc to do some Spyderco MBC classes.
 
Sal Glesser said:
I must say that this is the part of the industry that I enjoy most. I really appreciate the passion.

Blade thickness? best grind?
Click to expand...

Sal, you stumbled across a passionate group, and one that's been very under-served by the knife market. I'm not surprised at all about the passion.

Personally, I'd prefer a 4" blade, and definitely no less than 3.5". Most guys who carry folders for defensive use seem to be gravitating towards bigger and bigger folders these days, with 3.5" being kind of the low water mark. Keeping it just under 4" keeps it legal in a bunch of places.

Since this is a defensive type piece, I'd go really heavy on "whatever it touches it cuts" type performance. Full flat grind, on a blade around the thickness of the Lil Temp.

BTW, I open to pakal same as you, usually: inertial drop from a tip-up blade-forward draw, close hand around to get to edge-in.

Joe
 
I'd say 1/8" thickness... nothing too thick, I think 1/8" offers a lot of strength, and still is thin enough to reduce drag and cut well on the shear.
Grind... I like flat grinds, but whatever was to come about I'd be interested in.

Again I'd like to say that I think the orientation of the blade-edge, in relation to the lock-mechanism, needs to be conventional, with the edge closing into the handle first, so that in the open position, when the edge is pulled into a limb on the "shear" or when the pressure from a thrust is placed against the inside surface (the edge), it is not working the blade as a lever directly against the lock, but merely against the stop-pin/blade stop... if we want a strong, solid, piece that is reliable as a PIKAL blade, I think we cant afford to have something that in any fashion compromises the lock. I cant make out the compression lock diagram perfectly, but if I am looking at it right this is still a consideration. If not, oh well, chalk it up to my ignorance ;)

And as others have said, thank YOU, Sal, for taking the time to listen to us, and even begin to consider our thoughts - thats a great big part of why I rely on Spyderco day in and day out, and reccomend them so highly... you pay attention to the customers very well, and it is appreciated. :)
 
Couple of things guys.

I know there are some minor doctrinal differences in the way pikal is expressed. There's classical Pekiti, (from whence I came), Floro Fighting Systems/Illustrisimo, and the derivation that has been pared down into ShivWorks methodology. We should all be able to maintain system integrity if we remember a few things.

Pikal is a close quarter system which means shorter blade lengths. Can it be run at medio or even largo, provided the end-user has the attributes (i.e. footwork). Absolutely! But at it's heart it's up close and personal corto. If we want big blades and big blade methods, then there are a lot of options out there. Let's try and remember the principles.

I talked to Trace real briefly on the phone a minute ago and since he's so successful at pulling concepts out of one's brain and actualizing them in steel(Disciple, Clinch-Pick) it's a natural that he do a few proto customs, once Ray and I gob around a bit.
 
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