A Spyderco Pikal?

I just wanted to say that JW Bake's idea to "get Southnarc to do some Spyderco MBC classes" sounds like a very promising idea to consider.

Length preference for me would be at or just under 3.5." Anything longer not only becomes unwieldy for the short range, but it also becomes "socially unwieldy."

Also, the name and the appearance should be as "noncombative" as possible. It should work well for utility purposes. Considering the way knives can be held for certain utility work, that shouldn't present a problem.

Here in Ohio, if a knife were to be carried concealed and it was designed to be a "weapon," then it would technically be an "illegal, concealed weapon." The design parameters could be "fudged," but combined with a combative name, it would be a dead giveaway.

Thus, any advertising campaign should equally stress the utility and emergency rescue capabilities.

Karl
 
I would like to echo SafetyGuy's sentiments on naming it.

A neutral or utility-type name would be preferred. I.E., the Spyderco RGD (Reverse Grip eDge-in) or "ultra non-threating supreme bagel knife" or "Spyderco Evolution" or...you get the idea.

I think on the whole, Sal, you guys do a great job with the naming--Endura, Delica, etc. Of the 10+ Spydie's I own, none of them have a "scary" name.
 
jwbake13 said:
This may sound crazy, but the knives I've been doodling are setup so that the blade is completely shielded by the scales. ***That's because the cutting edge comes out first.*** The unsharpened spine of the knife is on the "wrong" side. That's right, if you aren't careful, you'll cut yourself.
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The problem with this is that every single cut, every single thrust, works hard against the lock. Granted, if it closes on your fingers it's not going to cut them, but it could still crush them and your equipment is still failing.
I don't care how strong the lock on a folder is, I just think it's a bad idea to set it up so that every ounce of force put to work on the edge is trying to fold the knife.

One of the great things about pikal methodology is that it stresses a lock less than any other style out there. I'd hate to see a knife that takes that attribute and completely reverses it.
 
Well, you're right about it stressing the lock.

The Chinook II was designed for back cuts and has a massive lock, but that whole knife is just ginormous. Bigger than what I would want for a pikal knife.

Maybe a "half-cock" notch in the lock mechanism???
I don't know, it was a crazy idea.

But, I can't [yet] get around the opening problem.

My understanding is pikal excels at Extremely close quarters.

I just keep thinking about being 0 feet away from a BG and having to draw, open, and then grip change.

I guess the answer for me would be a fixed blade, but they are not legal everywhere (the laws in my state are very confusing).
 
My understanding is pikal excels at Extremely close quarters.
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Most certainly it does!!!!!

But it is ALSO EXCELLENT at long range.............

I've been able to "stab" my opponents face from 9 feet away........... :D

However, I do agree with a quick opening action. My personal preference is for a fixed blade; but Marc Scott and Joe Talmadge explained to me your "interesting" knife carry laws
 
Wow things happen quick when your on the road.. Just got back from Blade, and Snarc told me about this.. Very exciting, and I am glad to see this stuff is catching on in the mainstream. It has been working nicely for guys like Snarc, and Ray for a long time, but only lately is seeing a mass audience.

From my experience in design collaboration for the Shivworks tools, there are many things to consider, and still keep things simple, and useable.
It is MUCH more than just flipping a blade upside down.

To be brief, I would be happy to lend my help to anything that furthers what we at Shivworks, have been doing which is bring real world hardware to end users who understand the software.




Take Care
Trace Rinaldi
www.thrblades.com
www.shivworks.com
 
Hi Trace,

Great to have you involved.............!!!!!!!!

For anyone who doesn't know Trace Rinaldi.......he's a genius when putting "ideas in steel"
 
Sal:

Thanks for the info on frame locks. My vote then has to go for the Compression Lock as the Ball Lock is a pain to disengage on the Dodos I've fondled.

As to blade length, I'd prefer around 3" if at all possible.
 
The primary advantage and necessity of a minimum 4" blade length is that one needs at least enough blade length to securely hook and at least for a single motion/instant control an arm, any part of the arm. I've trained with guys that have huge forearms and upper arms, regardless of whether it is from muscle or not. The primary 'hard' leverage point that a blade must hook up on(if your are shooting for momentary control and not just a ripping cut), is the bone. In my practice, incidental close quarter hookups in freeflow are hard to control to begin with, maintaining tight contact(for a controlling hook) is very difficult on a fast moving, resisting limb. With our longer(6-6.5") trainers, it's difficult, so with a sub-3.5" blade I can only imagine it would be almost always flowing through into shearing strokes.
I actually don't mind either way, but if one wants more solidity for the hook or hook to cut, I highly suggest not to fall too far below 4". A shorter blade is completely capable of hooks, but they are harder to apply and maintain, in my training anyway.

take care,
Ken
 
Ken I agree with you that it's harder to hook and control with a shorter blade, but there again I think alot of it comes back to doctrine and whether you consider hooking primary or incidental. Either way I think that the fact that Sal is even willing to entertain this rather arcane method of application is news enough to supplant minor differences in expression.
 
If the demand warrants it, perhaps there could be production runs of different blade lengths, with the same handle, to satisfy both ends of the preference spectrum as well as supply the needs of those who live in both oppressive and permissive jurisdictions. I also prefer the compression lock to the ball lock, because a knife with a ball lock can be made to behave as a gravity knife as interpreted by some jurisdictions, and I am happy with the compression locks on my Guntings. As for the model name, a moniker could be chosen to reflect utility, as a Pikal knife, especially with a straight-edged Wharnecliffe blade, is very useful in woodworking as a draw knife. Sal, thanks for once again, as always, listening to us.
 
This is not fully thought out yet, but more of an idea based on current experience that maybe could be added to by you all.

I have a Lil' Temp trailing point. The handle on that fits edge down forward or edge out reverse. However, the whole blade is within the handle when closed. I had the spine ground to a somewhat sharp false edge (rips really well, but won't shave hair), so that it could be used in reverse grip and still give some of the edge in shearing ability.

Now we already talked about a knife that would open edge first (ie. if on the lil' temp my false edge was the real edge. And we all mostly agree that even though the lock "should be" strong enough it is asking for trouble to intentionally put all the stress on the lock.

But, whats to say the lock can't go on the other side of the handle? The possible problem I see there is that force would still be exerted on the lock rather than the stop pin, the opposite of a conventional folder in forward/down orientation. But what if the handle to blade orientation was left the same, BUT the blade and handle were modified so that it could open spine first, like a conventional folder, but from the "back" of the handle. With accompanyingplacement of lock and stop pin I think this is viable. It would be based of an existing platform that already feels great oriented to reverse/ edge in but now would actually be built specifically for it.

One drawback I see is from the crowd who wants it to be useable in forward/down grip. While it would work fine like this as a hawkbill, the finger grooves dig into the palm a bit when grasping hard in this orientation.

Hope I made sense with what I was trying to say. Please let us all know what you think or offer suggestions on improving the idea if you think it might have merit.
 
Please forgive my ignorance, I don't know what "pikal" or "pakal" is, but from the links you posted there, I understand a dedicated knife for pikal is a knife specialized in slashing rather than thrusting. What about the Civilian (or Matriarch)? Those seem to be highly specialized tools for slashing.
 
dialex said:
Please forgive my ignorance, I don't know what "pikal" or "pakal" is, but from the links you posted there, I understand a dedicated knife for pikal is a knife specialized in slashing rather than thrusting. What about the Civilian (or Matriarch)? Those seem to be highly specialized tools for slashing.
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In pakal grip, the primary offense is thrusting. In my experience, slashes the way you're thinking about them aren't used at all. The closest thing to slashes is a sort-of hookin/filleting motion to clear a defender, and while withdrawing the thrust. Matriarch and Civilian wouldn't fit this style.

Joe
 
To help illustrate, via Shivworks expression:

A pikal thust is execute aim at the bad guy's centerline. Bad Guy rasies his arm to block/intercept incoming pikal thrust. Block is made, and forearms meet. Good guy drives down and rearwards with weapon hand, with prime intent to clear-off bad guy's blocking arm. If slash or cut occurs it is incidental -- i.e. good guy is working to clear his thrust line, the hooking cut, if a cut is a achieved, it is a by-product. Goal is to return quickly to thrusting lines.

This is Shivworks expression, others will differ.
 
Rex you are right in that whatever length that gets(might get) made, if it shows market success, variants can become feasable. Plus, I have several folders a couple of them Spyderco, that I can utilize in pakal at the moment anyhow, so I'd be happy with anything at this point. If it can enlighten more people in the advantages of this, as southnarc put it, 'arcane' methodology, I'd be happy. BTW, I've not been a big pursuant of the 'hook' to control tactics when limbs clash incidentally. Like I said, I find it hard to manifest and the more common clash to ripout cut action is what I've found happening more than anthing. I just wanted to suggest my optimal, knowing that manufacturing and marketing realities will shave it down to what Spyderco can feasably pursue, but it never hurts to ask for the moon AND the stars, when you are really willing to settle for just the moon.

And yes, I am suprised as well that a purpose designed edge-in folder is being considered by Sal/Spyderco. But actually, for all those who've corresponded with Sal either online or in person, would not be too suprised that Sal and those around him are very curious and open to growth in new and often unusual/unexplored territory, and they often get criticized for it, even though daring individual custom makers have been collaborating on highly speciallized bladework for years and usually get hailed for being so innovative.

Whatever comes from this will be rejected by some, misunderstood by many, and highly respected and sought after by a serious few. I just hope that few can make it profitable and satisfying for Spyderco.

As far as locks go, I prefer something that has a bias to stay close even when partially open like the lockback or ball-lock. I've had a couple bad experiences with ball detent mech.s getting jarred and the blade partially opening in pocket. One time was when I went to the ground sparring and when I got up there was no 'bad' cut, but the (tip down)blade was about 1/5 or so open.
And this was controlled sparring where my partner stopped shortly after we went down, if it was more violent and nonstop, I would be in bad shape.
Just my point of view.

take care,
Ken
 
This is really cool. Ideas and people trying to get them working. I forget what this is like living in Kalifornia. :(

Is it just me or does the blade on the Bill Moran Feather Weight hunter/skinner look like a pikal style? All you need to do is sharpen the opposite edge. The spine's curve really reminds me of the Kershaw Talon. Honestly I can't think of any way to make it open and not have to do any grip changes. The edge out idea was some top notch outside the box thinking. But I too would be worried about the lock being stressed so much.

Anyway, I will definatly be looking forward to these if the are made. New shiny things are always welcome to me! ;)
 
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