ABS Expo 2014 Report

[Travis Fry]

A successful business venture requires market research to determine if there will be a customer base to support it... Perhaps the Expo committee just needs to find some expert help with show planning.

The ABS has members with the skills and interest to do the first part, and the willingness and expertise to help with the second if given the opportunity. There is some discussion happening that could hopefully give rise to some comprehensive market research about what collectors, other buyers, and makers are looking for in shows, as well as other issues pertinent to the ABS and Guild. Early days yet, and it may not pan out, but if it does it could help move the conversation beyond anecdote to decisions based on real data. Nobody can make good decisions without good information.

I've never understood the forged, vs. stock removal thing. Period.

Thanks for saying this. There aren't enough of us out there of either type for competition in our promotion efforts to be more beneficial than collaboration in the same.

We appreciate the efforts of all of those who make it their goal to promote our craft, and especially those who work toward this goal with concrete actions.

 

[Gene Baskett]

Josh I agree with you we all need to let are egos go. The Guild is open, all of are members are welcome and the same goes to the ABS members from the Master Smiths down to the apprentice smiths. I have always admired the work that the ABS members do. We need to work together and this can come about.
Gene Baskett President KMG

 

[sculver]

Thanks for the appreciation Joe!

I forgot to write that a notable exception to my comment about "experts" putting on the best shows, is the Arkansas Knifemakers Show. Heck; I suppose the Arkansas guys ought to be seen as show experts now. Maybe David Etchieson and others involved in the Arkansas Show planning could offer the Expo committee some advice.

There aren't enough of us out there of either type for competition in our promotion efforts to be more beneficial than collaboration in the same.

Animosity between forged and stock removal makers, is like furniture makers who can't get along because one likes to use walnut and the other maple. As long as it's a quality product, what matters the materials or methods used? And I won't hesitate to learn a new technique from a stock removal maker. I bet I could even learn something from a guy like Les George! LOL!!

The Guild is open, all of are members are welcome and the same goes to the ABS members from the Master Smiths down to the apprentice smiths. I have always admired the work that the ABS members do. We need to work together and this can come about.

Thank you Gene!!!

 

[JParanee]

Gene really gracious and good post

If this thread can lead to something positive between the Guild and the ABS would not that be a wonderful thing

See the internet isn't so bad after all

 

[Jason Fry]

If this thread can lead to something positive between the Guild and the ABS would not that be a wonderful thing

:thumbup:

 

[Les George]

Always with the nice guy approach, Steve!

I bet I could even learn something from a guy like Les George! LOL!!

Even if its total BS...

 

[Dawkind]

Les would just get you in trouble, Steve, trust me buddy!

 

[Tom Ferry]

The ABS has members with the skills and interest to do the first part, and the willingness and expertise to help with the second if given the opportunity. There is some discussion happening that could hopefully give rise to some comprehensive market research about what collectors, other buyers, and makers are looking for in shows, as well as other issues pertinent to the ABS and Guild. Early days yet, and it may not pan out, but if it does it could help move the conversation beyond anecdote to decisions based on real data. Nobody can make good decisions without good information.

I agree totally!! The ABS is made up of some of the most talented makers in the world, sure most specialize in the forged blade arena. However we have Mastersmiths who are very much successful and respected in the Kitchen knife market, Tactical market, Art knife market and even the Production market. These makers have already done a large share of the market research in their markets as every maker should independently on their own. We should all know our customer base well, and be trying to expand that base. Those that do not will generally fail or continue in the craft as a hobbyist maker. More often than not these successful Mastersmiths on the fringes of the ABS have gone different directions based on market research and an understanding of market potential. Sometimes this potential fits into your business plan and other times you will need to adjust your plan to meet the market. So why can't we draw upon the diversity of business models and success that many of our members have, bring them all together under one roof and demonstrate to the world that the ABS is made up of the Best Knifemakers in all factions of the knife community not just the forged blade.

The only animosity between forged and tactical or stock removal that I have seen always stems from a lack of success in one market over the other. Its just plain ignorance and a jealous lack of understanding of how the entire knife market operates. Knifemakers from both sides as a whole generally only pay attention to their own little worlds. However years ago I realized that each of the independent knife genres (forged, art, tactical, kitchen, stock removal, ect.) are all part of one large market and it was in the interest of my business to research and recognize those other genres. I do not have to understand the knives, make the knives nor do I have to like all knives, but I do need to understand why collectors buy such knives. Once you understand this then you have a greater understanding of your own knives and business. However in order to use this information correctly you need to have an open mind and a drive for success that is not limited by what products or type of knife you can or are expected to create. One reason for the sudden surge in the tactical market (which for those of us who have been paying attention is nothing new) is that those makers are primarily independent businessmen, the majority are not Guild or ABS members. So they have no preconceived ideas, no inhibitions, and no hesitation to grow and evolve into what the buyers and market want. They immediately jump on any opportunity for success and market aggressively towards that goal.

The friction folder is a great example of when opportunity knocks open the door. The Tactical guys took a design that has been primarily put in the category of a forged frontier knife and evolved it into a modern tactical due to laws and restrictions in Europe concerning the possession of folders. These tactical makers seen an opportunity that was created by governments and pushed ahead to create a completely new market-share within the knife community worldwide not just Europe. Todd Begg, Mike Snody, ect., the list goes on. How many makers outside of that group realized this, seen the potential or realized it was more than just committing blasphemy to a traditionally forged blade. Why didn't more ABS guys in particular jump on this bandwagon from the beginning? This design falls well within the realm of the ABS. In my opinion its because as a whole we do not pay attention to the entire knife collecting community.

Sorry for the rambling on.....

 

[JParanee]

One reason for the sudden surge in the tactical market (which for those of us who have been paying attention is nothing new) is that those makers are primarily independent businessmen, the majority are not Guild or ABS members. So they have no preconceived ideas, no inhibitions, and no hesitation to grow and evolve into what the buyers and market want. They immediately jump on any opportunity for success and market aggressively towards that goal. ..

This is one of the best quotes in the thread

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

There are lots of good posts in this thread. :thumbup:

Kevin Jones, I apologize if you misunderstood my previous post. I think you are doing a great job of CKCA. However, I think you will better serve as President if you get more exposure to other shows. I was at one of the Reno shows you referenced in your last post. The show was fun, but collector attendance cannot be compared to the Labor Day shows in Las Vegas. I think CKCA should send you to SHOT, TKI and Las Vegas so you can better understand some of your collectors and the size of the market. At the same time, collectors from the Tactical genre may not know the CKCA exists. These collectors might benefit from membership in CKCA.

Tom Ferry's comments about friction folders is a great example of knifemakers recognizing and exploiting an opportunity. Why didn't ABS knifemakers profit from this opportunity? Were they not aware of the law changes? Did they not want to work with the non-traditional materials? All knifemakers who make a living selling knives need to watch for similar opportunities and work hard to capitalize on them.

I think the ABS should spend more time teaching their members marketing. The argument I've heard against this is "The ABS is a non-profit organization" and "The purpose of the ABS is to teach people about the forged blade". The NFL is a non-profit organization. They work with their members to promote business. Teaching knifemakers who forge their knives how to market themselves will result in more people learning about forged knives. Being a non-profit organization and helping knifemakers make money are not mutually exclusive.

Chuck

 

[sculver]

Even if its total BS...

Well; if you want to learn something, always seek the best at it!!! LOL!!!

If you and I actually had an opportunity to spend some time in the shop, we probably wouldn't accomplish a darn thing constructive. It would be all BSing!

Les would just get you in trouble, Steve, trust me buddy!

Oh, I know!! But, what do you expect from a guy who grew up in Kansas? After a little incident in San Antonio, I doubt that Bill Wiggins will ever hang around with me and Les again.

Being a non-profit organization and helping knifemakers make money are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly!!!

I am the coordinator of the Heartland Bladesmithing Symposium. At a few of the ABS hammer-ins, there have been seminars on marketing, by Jerry Fisk and others. But, I don’t know that we have ever had a collector give a presentation. I would like to schedule a collector do a seminar on the collector's perspective of the knife business. A marketing plan without knowing what the customer wants, is just throwing darts. Knifemakers need to understand what the collectors want from us.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Exactly!!!

I am the coordinator of the Heartland Bladesmithing Symposium. At a few of the ABS hammer-ins, there have been seminars on marketing, by Jerry Fisk and others. But, I don’t know that we have ever had a collector give a presentation. I would like to schedule a collector do a seminar on the collector's perspective of the knife business. A marketing plan without knowing what the customer wants, is just throwing darts. Knifemakers need to understand what the collectors want from us.

Ding Ding Ding

 

[lwrhea]

Steve, That idea of getting the collector's perspective is hitting the nail right on the head buddy!

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

I would like to schedule a collector do a seminar on the collector's perspective of the knife business. A marketing plan without knowing what the customer wants, is just throwing darts. Knifemakers need to understand what the collectors want from us.

Great idea.

But you might want to get several collectors, as in my experience, although I think there are a lot of common elements for the vast majority of collectors, different collectors have different perspectives and look for different things when deciding to make a purchase or place an order. Which is a good thing as that means there is a seat for every ass. LOL! What I mean is that variety in collector viewpoints allows a variety of makers to sell a variety of different knives.

Whatever you do, I suggest that you get a collector or collectors who actually spends their own money buying and collecting knives every year, and not a "lookyloo."

Really . . . I don't know if I should go here . . . but here I go.

Ya know, the major purveyors in the collector community who sell lots of knives from different makers all year long might have a better perspective on what collectors are looking for than any one collector, or even small group of collectors, that you would likely assemble. Just a (heretical?) thought.

 

[billf]

I think that is a great idea too...as long as you get a good cross-section of collectors!

If you have one (or a couple of ) well known Bowie collector(s) speak, you will certainly get valuable info on what THEY look for....but I'm not sure that will help much in "expanding the market" so to speak

I'd think you'd want some "art knife" collectors, some "tactical" collectors, and frankly some of the younger "zombie cleaver" type enthusiasts as well - ie more of a symposium or forum, so that you can have some back and forth. That alone might dispel some of the "myths" that float around and muddy the waters.

For that reason, I'd think one of the bigger shows in Vegas or Blade would be the right place to do this, with plenty of publicity.

Also, to give credit where it is due, Tom Ferry and the ACE guys did this at one of their shows and I think it was illuminating for all involved

Bill Flynn

 

[billf]

I see great minds think alike

I think the purveyor idea has merit too, but they do have a different perspective and intent, since they have to be in it to turn knives over and make money !

Not saying collectors don't consider that also, but to get new blood you need to generate ENTHUSIASM among potential collectors, and I think that starts with a "connection" with the knifemaker/bladesmith.

Bill

 

[mwschilling]

I think what is being suggested here is a PANEL of collectors, one from each class. The panels job is to start the discussion, offer their unique perspective, and generate discussion amongst the other participants. In the end you have a collective perspective of the overall market and hopefully valuable suggestions for new direction or expansion.

 

[RogerP]

Well; if you want to learn something, always seek the best at it!!! LOL!!!

If you and I actually had an opportunity to spend some time in the shop, we probably wouldn't accomplish a darn thing constructive. It would be all BSing!



Oh, I know!! But, what do you expect from a guy who grew up in Kansas? After a little incident in San Antonio, I doubt that Bill Wiggins will ever hang around with me and Les again.



Exactly!!!

I am the coordinator of the Heartland Bladesmithing Symposium. At a few of the ABS hammer-ins, there have been seminars on marketing, by Jerry Fisk and others. But, I don’t know that we have ever had a collector give a presentation. I would like to schedule a collector do a seminar on the collector's perspective of the knife business. A marketing plan without knowing what the customer wants, is just throwing darts. Knifemakers need to understand what the collectors want from us.

Ashokan has had a number of collector seminars. They have been well attended, and based on feedback from makers, very well received.

 

[JParanee]

This would be very good

To bad Les is not here to comment

Someone should poll the dealers

I think you will be amazed at what they come back with

Was there just not a article in blade where the dealers picked the top ten makers or something like that

 

[Kevin Jones]

I would like to schedule a collector do a seminar on the collector's perspective of the knife business. A marketing plan without knowing what the customer wants, is just throwing darts. Knifemakers need to understand what the collectors want from us.

Yep, that's a great concept. Sometimes I think we forget that without the collectors/buyers (or more precisely purchases) it all goes down the drain.

Great idea.

But you might want to get several collectors, as in my experience, although I think there are a lot of common elements for the vast majority of collectors, different collectors have different perspectives and look for different things when deciding to make a purchase or place an order. Which is a good thing as that means there is a seat for every ass. LOL! What I mean is that variety in collector viewpoints allows a variety of makers to sell a variety of different knives.

Whatever you do, I suggest that you get a collector or collectors who actually spends their own money buying and collecting knives every year, and not a "lookyloo."

Really . . . I don't know if I should go here . . . but here I go.

Ya know, the major purveyors in the collector community who sell lots of knives from different makers all year long might have a better perspective on what collectors are looking for than any one collector, or even small group of collectors, that you would likely assemble. Just a (heretical?) thought.

Personally, I believe collectors are better off having collectors speak on what they desire and need as opposed to purveyors or anyone whose perspective is derived from doing it as a business.
Best case scenario would be panel of collectors with as diverse taste and knowledge as possible in regard to custom knives with no agendas other than purchasing custom knives while being inconvenienced as little as possible in doing so.

Having said that, I wonder how often collectors have been asked where they would like the shows to be located, what they want offered, and what show format they like best?












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