ABS Expo 2014 Report

[Lorien]

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[ron_m80]

The desire for exclusivity seems to be more of a Baby Boomer trait.

The "Us vs. Them" mentality is very much indicative of the cold war generations. It was the daily mantra of everything the people read, watched, and heard.

At this point in time the focus of the knife industry representative organizations needs to shift toward preserving craftsmenship in all forms, and all the cottage industry hold outs as a whole.

If knife.makers cannot compete (even at a higher price point!) with foreign made forgings and tools, we will lose the industry to manufactured imports by way of geeks in suits that design ad's with catchy music.

 

[fisk]

Joe, they felt like a stand alone show was best for them and their future.

 

[JParanee]

Joe,

That was a good reply to Ken. Liking traditional ABS style knives does not mean that other knives are not appreciated. I agree with your comment about performance pieces. Plenty of ABS makers make very high performance knives, but not all collectors are aware of it.



The Commenchero is my knife, I picked it up for a very reasonable price from the original owner. I have not used it yet, but have considered using it, I just rarely carry a big knife. In the last 20 years or so, Jerry Fisk has made very many knives that would be considered tactical for deployed members of the Military, as have other ABS members. Many knife collectors might not be aware of this.

Jerry even makes a Tactical folding skinner! Here is the prototype of his Fiskmuk folder in carbon steel and micarta. Jerry carried and used it daily for a year. I was lucky enough to acquire it and it is one of the knives that I carry and use.



Jim

Jim

Your a lucky fellow

If ya ever sell it let me know

I gotta trade for ya if your interested reach out

Jerry knows what he's doing in spades

 

[JParanee]

Joe, they felt like a stand alone show was best for them and their future.

Oh

I wish it would of worked more to that end

Thanks for the answer

With the way you can command a room I'm surprised they would not of taken your recommendation to heart

I also used to really enjoy your commentary of the cutting comps

 

[Travis Fry]

I could probably contribute something relevant to this conversation but I'm tired. I'll start and stop with a thanks to everyone who has posted for keeping this conversation civil, and an encouragement to keep it that way. We've all seen it go badly, kudos to all for keeping this positive.

 

[gga357]

Well either way I cherished them and treated them with the reverence that a blade by Massamune would deserve


I would just like see the performance aspects of the blades concentrated on and that is what the projects that I am involved in stress
These blades do not even, and I hope they are not marketed as tactical blades because if the stress is on high performance the tactical part of the market will seek them out and buy them anyway

Half gram heavy on the back end

I'm still that little kid in awe of the forged blade

I bet many of us started the same way.

I am in search of performance it a package with visual appeal using traditional material. There are non-ABS makers that have marketed their knives in a way that has created a constant stir and demand. I agree that the competitions would be a perfect way to market performance of more traditional knives. I have read many threads in many forums that have lead me to do tons of research all towards performance for me. I say for me because I prefer toughness over edge retention. (3V versus S90V) I used those examples why? Because the talk and the buzz around these new steels is part of the marketing that is easy to "google". I can find charts to compare many of these steels with a quick search. I suspect most if not all who just read that know what I mean by that comparison. If I spent an afternoon searching for performance charactoristics of W2 or 10xx I may still have several question that would require more effort to have a better understanding. The extra effort may be beyond the gen x, gen y and millennials attention span. I am a gen x, but also an engineer with a passion for knives and information.

There is an appeal for 5160's toughness or a hamon in W2 or 10xx. The information on these steels is not quite as concise and easy to find with a quick internet search. There is alot of grey surrounding steel/HT/methods ect.. I love them all in one form or another, but I do admit if the original romance of more traditional steels and methods wasn't already in me then the buzz and more simple/concise presentation of the "super" steels could easily draw a person in that directions and make it seem like the traditional methods are inferior.

Long story short... marketing in a way that shows high performance of traditional methods that directly compares to the modern in a simple, concise and easy to find way.



Awesome quote and vid, one of my favorites.

Aren't we all that same kid?

P.S. Thank you for this thread and the great exchange and information. Also thank you to this sub-forum and the entire forum for the vast amount of information I have been able glean over the years.

 

[JParanee]

I bet many of us started the same way.

I am in search of performance it a package with visual appeal using traditional material. There are non-ABS makers that have marketed their knives in a way that has created a constant stir and demand. I agree that the competitions would be a perfect way to market performance of more traditional knives. I have read many threads in many forums that have lead me to do tons of research all towards performance for me. I say for me because I prefer toughness over edge retention. (3V versus S90V) I used those examples why? Because the talk and the buzz around these new steels is part of the marketing that is easy to "google". I can find charts to compare many of these steels with a quick search. I suspect most if not all who just read that know what I mean by that comparison. If I spent an afternoon searching for performance charactoristics of

There is an appeal for 5160's toughness or a hamon in W2 or 10xx. The information on these steels is not quite as concise and easy to find with a quick internet search. There is alot of grey surrounding steel/HT/methods ect.. I love them all in one form or another, but I do admit if the original romance of more traditional steels and methods wasn't already in me then the buzz and more simple/concise presentation of the "super" steels could easily draw a person in that directions and make it seem like the traditional methods are inferior.

Long story short... marketing in a way that shows high performance of traditional methods that directly compares to the modern in a simple, concise and easy to find way.



Awesome quote and vid, one of my favorites.

Aren't we all that same kid?

Thanks Greg

 

[Tom Ferry]

Awesome to see this topic discussed on a real public forum!!

Great comments by many but honestly I feel Joe Paranee has hit the nail on the head with a 416 Rigby. It really all comes down to marketing at an individual level.

I am not buying into the whole tactical versus forged blade argument. Tactical knives have been here well over 15 years, they are nothing new. What is new is how tactical makers are marketing themselves and how well they are doing so.

When the Guild and ABS were in their prime it was because of marketing. Not necessarily the organizations themselves but a few key knifemakers. Bill Moran and BR Hughes in the ABS understood how to market the forged blade and they did so very well, in fact arguably better than anyone has before or since. Once a maker of any knife genre makes it big, it thereby benefits any and all makers who make similar knives. Its simply supply, demand and price. Meaning in order for a collector to purchase a knife from this world famous knifemaker he now has to wait a long time on a list, put in a lottery, spend a lot in auction, pay overinflated second hand market price or....buy a similar knife from another talented maker who does not market himself and is not in high demand. Thereby everyone benefits and this is where the average knifemaker is giving a false sense of security. He did nothing to market his knives before his sales increased so he can not understand why the market has shifted and his sales have dropped off.

The Arkansas Show is successful because the makers in attendance are actively marketing that show and themselves. From what I seen last year they are also very committed to that show and its success, almost as if it were tied directly to their business’s. The ABS show on the other hand has no dedication from the Mastersmiths as a whole. It also has had a lot of table turn over and thereby lack of consistent marketing by the members. All of this comes into play with collectors, if the membership does not demonstrate excitement towards the show why would the client. So in my opinion the location (which sucks over Reno), the time of year (which does not seem to affect TKI), the timing with Arkansas (San Antonio does not seem to affect Arkansas though) and the show committee is not doing their job (by not bringing in collectors) all become easy outs and excuses for makers and collectors alike. Again it all comes down to individual marketing, the ABS is not going to do it for you.

Les George is right in that we need more excitement in the world of the forged blade, but its not with lotteries and auctions. Those come with demand and success but they will not make you successful. There is a lot to be taken from how the Tactical makers conduct business but there are also very successful makers within the ABS ranks who possess the same knowledge of success with a forged blade. Yet the leadership has found a way to push most of the successful Mastersmiths away from the organization thereby eliminating any chance of that knowledge being passed on or shared.

I had a lot of reasons for quitting the ABS show but in hindsight they are all irrelevant. They were excuses, a place to put the blame. I am fully aware at this stage of the game that I simply quit because it no longer fit into my business plan. There were limitations and rules that the ABS had in place that negatively affected my business. Primarily the high carbon, forged blades only rule. No stainless steel, which was a significant part of my business then and has continued to grow. I only have so much time and finances to throw at a knife show and I can not afford to take a loss. If I can not do a large portion of my business at the ABS show why would the organization expect me to go? Shows are not vacations or a guys weekend away from the wives, its a place of business. This is what the collectors expect of us and if I can not bring the product collectors expect of me, why would they be willing to support the show? I realize the ABS is non profit and all about the preservation of the forged blade and that a great thing. However the ABS show is a place for the membership to conduct business, a place for profit. You can not tie your memberships hands and expect this to work and I am pretty sure that it has been well demonstrated that it does not. I took Stainless Steel tactical knives into Arkansas last year and I also took an engraved damascus bowie. Guess what, I sold 6 tactical knives in the best forged blade knife show out there. This statement may surprise some of you but the majority of collectors just enjoy knives, all knives, and if they see something they like they buy it. So from my point of view, by limiting what knives the membership can bring or make you are going to naturally limit the success of the show and its collector base. A show promoter needs to not only cater to the table holders but even more so to the needs of the collectors. Thats one of the reasons AKI, TKI, USN, and Solvang are truly off the chart successful.

Maybe its time for the ABS membership to congregate at the Board Meeting in Atlanta and voice our concerns. It is our organization, we all appreciate and enjoy the forged blade otherwise these discussions would not be so emotional. I personally miss the excitement and enthusiasm for the forged blade from the past.

 

[JParanee]

Great post Tom

 

[SharpByCoop]

Early in this thread I made a comment about the ABS the Guild and 'Tactical' knives. Much of my sentiment was forged in a private conversation with Tom Ferry at the NYCKS.

Joe P also had these visions, and declared it much more succinctly than I had the nerve (or knowledge) to.

It's grown 6 pages with outstanding commentary for potential 'change'.

I'm liking the trend.

Thanks to all for the deep, well-thought opinions.

 

[Les George]

This statement may surprise some of you but the majority of collectors just enjoy knives, all knives, and if they see something they like they buy it.

This is the statement that should end all the forged/handmade/tactical/cnc/et al debates. They are just knives, make cool ones and people will want to own them.

and have fun!

 

[billf]

I have been following this thread with increasing interest, and when I looked at it just now and saw that Tom had posted this afternoon...well, I had a little deja vu feeling

I had a discussion with Tom during and after last year's Arkansas Show, and again at NYCKS ( though not at the same time as Coop ) about pretty much this same topic. As you can see, Tom has done a lot of thinking in this area and I think he is spot on

"Us vs Them" is just not productive nor necessary - I realize that it is a minority of those in both camps who fan this, which is good. Nevertheless, this idea always seems to be hovering in the background. Myself, I do not believe success of one genre is at the cost of success in the other - it is NOT a zero sum game! Let's make the pie ( market) bigger and then everyone will benefit...as long as they stay fresh, and do what they love.

Full disclosure - I own a number of knives from many of the great knife makers who've posted here, and I bought them because I liked the knives and I enjoyed my interactions with the makers. I have a bunch of forged knives and consider myself a "fan" of that genre, but I also own a bunch of "tactical" knives - Onion,Williams, Boguzewski, Terzuola, Martin, Mayo, Cecchini, Elishewitz....you get the idea. Doesn't matter to me when I'm talking to RJ that he is not a forger...nor that Dave Lisch is not a stock removal guy.

As for Tom....I think it is GREAT that he does both (fabulously well I might add) and if he gets "pushback" from ABS for using stainless or D2...well, to me that is just crazy

I've watched Les George's knives evolve over time and based on that, and on his thoughtful and Useful comments here, I plan on making it a point to meet him,talk with him, and BUY a knife from him :thumbup:

Joe P - again, I think you are right on target. I love the Jason Knight "tacticals" and am sad I missed out on that run ! If a "forging guy" makes a great knife with a "man-made" handle - no problem at all to me, even though I love my Hanson ivory fighters too. IMHO, you are doing a great job "promoting" a dialogue about blending styles and markets - I say keep it up !

Finally, credit to all who have posted here - this COULD have devolved quickly, and has not because everyone has made thoughtful responses and has listened (read) through the replies. Kumbaya ( sorry Steven )

Bill Flynn

 

[JParanee]

Thanks Bill

Funny thing is when you put all the makers..... stock removal , forged , tactical, etc in the same room most will get along just fine

It seems that by trying to separate everyone into different sections , shows Etc the old adage united we stand divided we fall comes to mind

Why do you think Blade is such a blast and draws so many people. I even think the sections should be segregated. Some like chocolate some vanilla but we can all eat them together and be happy.

I even hear rumor of a few very prominent Tactical makers doing collabs with some very well known ABS makers

Tom Ferry has been doing this with folks like the Hawks for awhile. Way to go Tom


Here is a little quiz

What top Tactical Maker is also a JS Smith and made this piece

I'll give you a hint he's one of the smartest guys in the room and has numerous production deals

 

[JParanee]

BTW that's sole authorship there

 

[Kohai999]

Couple miscellaneous points I'd like to address here.

In the current state of things, it isn't a Forged vs Stock Removal equation....it is an old(Forged) vs young(Tactical) equation...the two camps don't really understand each other, and the old fellas feel more than a little threatened by the young folks. I understand many of the socio-political aspects of this, I just don't feel it has to be that way. In other words, the older guys have seen the future and it scares them. Not necessary....the next generation of knife collectors has to come from somewhere.

Tom and others have mentioned the ABS as being owed a debt of gratitude for promoting the forged knife and this is correct....but there is another organization that did just as good a job. The New England Bladesmith's Guild-Jimmy Fikes, Jim Schmidt, Dan Maragni...and I can't remember who else. This was an IMMENSELY influential group(responsible for the Ashokan Gatherings), considering their geographical location(Tri State area-New York, New Jersey, Connecticut). These guys formed the organization in RESPONSE to the ABS, within a fairly short period of time, instead of because of the ABS. They wanted to take some of the hooey being promoted at the time like "edge packing" and instead share ideas...supremely successful and no less important than the ABS. If the ABS is the birthplace of popular forged knives in the US, the New England Bladesmith Guild was a collection of some of the brightest and most intellectual bladesmiths in the US.

I think the job of a show promoter, be it for-profit or non-profit is to consider the target market and make sure that the customers are there, and ready to buy from the makers that are there. It is the job of the maker to ensure that the knives that they are selling at the show are something that will appeal to the buyers. It is the job of the buyer to make sure that they have enough money for the knives that they want, and have a good idea of what they are looking for.

I'm really excited about the upcoming show in Seattle that Daniel O'Malley is putting on because-1)Daniel knows what he is doing as a show promoter....he will get the customers in the door, 2) the makers will have an amazing variety of knives, something for everyone, and 3)the customers know what they are doing too. If everything goes right, this show should be something that all organizations should watch because it is in it's infancy, and if it does well right out of the gate....Daniel must be doing his job correctly.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[SharpByCoop]

STeven: Possibly Don Fogg, Robbin Hudson as metalsmiths, and guys like Murad Sayen and Jim Kelso as artisans in that group?

Joe: I'd forgotten about that and I really had to think. Oh yeah! Man, you Made my Day!

Coop

 

[JParanee]

Jim

I had to crop your name off the photo

Thanks to both you and Steven for not giving it away

 

[Tom Ferry]

Joe, that maker is one of my heros in the knife community and someone I consider a good friend, successful businessman and confidant with new ideas. A very rare combination in this industry. Much Respect!!!

I would have thought more ABS makers would have participated in this thread but maybe the lack of support at San Antonio is in itself enough to bring about positive change and forward momentum.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Jim

I had to crop your name off the photo

Thanks to both you and Steven for not giving it away

I knew him before the 'Tacticals'.