ABS Forging, what counts ?.

[JTknives]

well i have been wondering what the abs considers forging. say someone cold forged a blade, ground it and heat treated it. the onley thing diffrent would be the lack pounding on steel when its hot, everything else would be the same. would thay except it as forged? im not saying work hardening it but taking it through a proper heat treat cycle. I would consider it forged as i think tempature is relavent.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I assume the question is a ,"What IF?" question and not one for actual functional use. If you had the facilities to properly heat treat the blade , you would have the facilities to properly forge it,too

Well, anything shaped by hammering is forged ,so from the semantics point of view, Yes, it is forged.

From the metal working point of view, there is not a lot of proper shaping you can do to a cold piece of high carbon steel. Maybe you can make some indents and a simple bevel, but as far as forging it to shape, I don't think any good results would come. You would have a stock reduction blade that was pre-shaped by hammering the steel a bit, but I would not call it a forged blade.

In my definition of forged, the metal needs to be re-shaped from a parent bar (round, flat, square), or other source material, into the shape of the knife, with the particular details of the blade at least roughed in. This requires having knife blade steels at temperatures from 1600F to 2200F. Damage done to the steel internally may lead to severe flaws and weaknesses in the finished blade.....even if it was properly heat treated when finished.....in a cold forged blade made from the normal knife steels.

Stacy

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I would be very disappointed in the ABS if they allowed such a blade to qualify. The definition of forging has been discussed here recently and I was a little perplexed in how the obvious was overlooked, i.e. shouldn't "forging" at some point involve a "forge"?? With patience anybody could cold hammer a blade out of a piece of metal, being a skilled bladesmith is not about the hammer it is about very developed skills in control of the temperatures. If the ABS were to dismiss this they would have to disregard 3/4 of the art they have worked so hard to preserve. Maintaining a proper fire, control of atmosphere, decarb and scale while working within that range which moves the metal yet doesn't overheat are what it is about. Controlling grain size, distributing carbon, pattern welding, normalizing and learning colors etc... Eliminate these things and we could be interchangeable with tinsmiths, silversmiths or any number of metalworkers who shape cold metal.

On the other hand... properly cold worked steel would have its molecules packed incredibly tight and be many times more dense than the hot worked stuff. And the richer the alloy the harder it would be to move it, which would be a strong indication of how all of those carbides mashing together would be imparting unbelievable strength to the steel with virtually no chance of micro fracturing. I know Jarod suggested normal heat treating but why not think outside the box and leave the heat off it entirely? I would expect to get many 180 degree flexes out of it (which could be perhaps twice as many 90 degree bends!!!). The edge holding would be from work hardening alone thus the blade would be unbreakable, yet very sharpenable!!!:thumbup: When one weighs the possible benefits it does indeed render not just forging but any heat treating a moot point.

Once again it is a tough call- preserving a tradition or abandoning orthodox dogma in order to climb to new heights in blade performance.

 

[Tai Goo]

You mean the ABS forges? You mean they represent some kind of smithing tradition?

I thought it was just a fit and finish outfit...

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Tai, Tai, Tai... be nice! Try to behave!

 

[Bill Burke]

I beleive I detect sarcasm

 

[AcridSaint]

This seems to be another "I want into the abs" deal. What's the point of trying to get into the organization if you don't do what they do? Is it just to sell knives? If so, being a member of the Guild would be just as helpful and you wouldn't have to forge.

 

[JTknives]

no not at all. i have no problem at all hot forging. i was thinking about the word forging and sence im going to be filling out the papers soon and becoming a member of the ABS i thought i would through it out there as a what if, thats all

 

[rhrocker]

On the other hand... properly cold worked steel would have its molecules packed incredibly tight and be many times more dense than the hot worked stuff.

Hummm....That "Packed" word again, as in edge packing. I knew there must be a place for it

 

[Tai Goo]

Tai, Tai, Tai... be nice! Try to behave!

What? Did I say something wrong?

The businessman in me says,... the more of them the better.

I think it’s a great organization!

 

[sharpeknives]

What? Did I say something wrong?

The businessman in me says,... the more of them the better.

I think it’s a great organization!

That Must have taken alot out of you. Tai, I have a new respect for your humility.:barf:

 

[Will Leavitt]

J, you missed one point in the ABS judging standards.... after your performance test, the testing ABS Mastersmith may ask you to demonstrate your abilities by having you forge a blade.

 

[Ed Caffrey]

I think "spirit" and "intent" have much to do with it also. Each and every spring I get emails and phone calls from many individuals who want to test for their JS rating. Many of these calls/emails come from people who are looking for an angle. Rather than read the ABS rules and take the necessary actions to adhere to them, they want to knit-pick at the rules and are just trying to get away with something.

I personally have failed one JS applicant because he could not forge a blade. I admit this was a rare thing, but when he showed up with his test knife, it exhibited none of the characteristics of the three finished knives he had brought for inspection. The only way I know how to put it is...they looked like stock removal blades.
I told him that before testing his blade, I would require him to rough forge a drop point hunter for me. His eyes got big, and he argued that he was not prepared to do that. I showed him a copy of the rules, and told him it was either forge a blade at my discrection, or take a failure on the test. My suspicions where confirmed when I fired up the forge and he literally had no idea where to start. I came right out and asked him who had forged the test blade. He got angry, and left shortly there after. I sent a failure notice into the ABS office and haven't heard from the individual since. There's not a doubt in my mind that someone other than he, had forged and heat treated that test blade. The fact I have never seen or heard from him since further confirms it for me.
If an individual wants to be part of the organization, they are expected to play by the rules set forth by the ABS board. If an individual cannot or will not adhere to the rules, including the spirit and intent of those rules, then maybe the ABS is not for them.
I can understand the "what if" thing, but just be cautious in that it could be misunderstood to mean your looking for an angle, or a way around something.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

On the other hand... properly cold worked steel would have its molecules packed incredibly tight and be many times more dense than the hot worked stuff. And the richer the alloy the harder it would be to move it, which would be a strong indication of how all of those carbides mashing together would be imparting unbelievable strength to the steel with virtually no chance of micro fracturing. I know Jarod suggested normal heat treating but why not think outside the box and leave the heat off it entirely? I would expect to get many 180 degree flexes out of it (which could be perhaps twice as many 90 degree bends!!!). The edge holding would be from work hardening alone thus the blade would be unbreakable, yet very sharpenable!!!:thumbup: When one weighs the possible benefits it does indeed render not just forging but any heat treating a moot point.

Once again it is a tough call- preserving a tradition or abandoning orthodox dogma in order to climb to new heights in blade performance.

Kevin, I wonder if you might need a vacation.

 

[JTknives]

nope im not looking for an angle at all. who would not love hammering hot steel to the beat of rock music . i allwase have little "what if" questions floating around in my head . when i do test for my JS there wont be any angles pulled just a knife maker that wants to show how much he loves making knives.

 

[Tai Goo]

That Must have taken alot out of you. Tai, I have a new respect for your humility.:barf:

Thanks!

My Mom says that my humility and my honesty have been the two main keys to my success. She’s very proud of me.

…It kind of gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside, if you know what I mean.

 

[Tai Goo]

Seriously, I think if you just took a flat bar and rough forged a tang on one end, a point on the other, and put a few dents along the edge,... it would be passable. Or,... maybe even just take a round bar, flatten it out into a banana shaped profile.

They really ought to think about limiting stock reduction, at least on the test knives. Even something real easy like no more than 20 percent by weight. They also ought to think about outlawing belt grinders (and powers tools) on the test knives. Those things have done more damage to the craft of bladesmithing than anything else I can think of... but I guess it's already too late.

 

[butcher_block]

They really ought to think about limiting stock reduction, at least on the test knives. Even something real easy like no more than 20 percent by weight. They also ought to think about outlawing belt grinders (and powers tools) on the test knives. Those things have done more damage to the craft of bladesmithing than anything else I can think of... but I guess it's already too late.

what about the Damascus knives that really need heavy grinding to get in to the nice looking pattering
BTW i too had wandered about some of these points but till im ready for putting together a test im sure i ll be just fine. might not forge to 90% but the forging will be done

i know that Mr Carter does cold forge some of his kitchen knives (also does not put his MS on them ether )

 

[jdm61]

I would be very disappointed in the ABS if they allowed such a blade to qualify. The definition of forging has been discussed here recently and I was a little perplexed in how the obvious was overlooked, i.e. shouldn't "forging" at some point involve a "forge"?? With patience anybody could cold hammer a blade out of a piece of metal, being a skilled bladesmith is not about the hammer it is about very developed skills in control of the temperatures. If the ABS were to dismiss this they would have to disregard 3/4 of the art they have worked so hard to preserve. Maintaining a proper fire, control of atmosphere, decarb and scale while working within that range which moves the metal yet doesn't overheat are what it is about. Controlling grain size, distributing carbon, pattern welding, normalizing and learning colors etc... Eliminate these things and we could be interchangeable with tinsmiths, silversmiths or any number of metalworkers who shape cold metal.

On the other hand... properly cold worked steel would have its molecules packed incredibly tight and be many times more dense than the hot worked stuff. And the richer the alloy the harder it would be to move it, which would be a strong indication of how all of those carbides mashing together would be imparting unbelievable strength to the steel with virtually no chance of micro fracturing. I know Jarod suggested normal heat treating but why not think outside the box and leave the heat off it entirely? I would expect to get many 180 degree flexes out of it (which could be perhaps twice as many 90 degree bends!!!). The edge holding would be from work hardening alone thus the blade would be unbreakable, yet very sharpenable!!!:thumbup: When one weighs the possible benefits it does indeed render not just forging but any heat treating a moot point.

Once again it is a tough call- preserving a tradition or abandoning orthodox dogma in order to climb to new heights in blade performance.

Dude.....you forgot the "sarcasm alert" smiley. Are you still suffering from a bit of pickup truck lag from your drive back From Troy?

 

[Tai Goo]

what about the Damascus knives that really need heavy grinding to get in to the nice looking pattering
BTW i too had wandered about some of these points but till im ready for putting together a test im sure i ll be just fine. might not forge to 90% but the forging will be done

i know that Mr Carter does cold forge some of his kitchen knives (also does not put his MS on them ether )

I know you are probably kidding, but,... no you don't need to do a lot of stock reduction to get a really nice pattern on damascus. In fact you can actually get a much more interesting pattern by forging it very closely to shape, taking the edge down thin. You need to start off with a very fine pattern with lots of layers, and the forging distresses the surface pattern giving it lot more activity than the typical ground bevels. It's easy to spot the difference once you recognize it.