ABS Forging, what counts ?.

[Tai Goo]

... Just go try to teach a chimp how to rub a piece of metal with a stone,... then try to teach it how to hot forge blade. LOL

... hope Bubba's reading this.

 

[fitzo]

I don't know, Tai. I'd swear I've seen a couple of those guys at hammer-ins.

 

[Tai Goo]

...can't argue with you there Mike,... but they sure are cute with their white smocks and their test tubes...

... waving their hammers around...

 

[fitzo]

...can't argue with you there Mike,... but they sure are cute with their white smocks and their test tubes...

... waving their hammers around...

I've met them in lab coats, too, working for a major pharmaceutical corporation, with degrees from fancy schools.

My bottom line about knifemaking is that I crave to learn everything I can about all the different skills I see brought to bear. I can do stock removal, forge blades, make damascus. No matter how good I can make a knife, it takes but moments to find better. I can't carve, set jewels, cast. The transcendent skill is always the one around the corner, that I haven't done yet. It's a long, long list. Which is why I dislike the elitism of denigrating one skill to promote another; it's hard to define an ultimate, and there's always someone more skilled.

 

[AcridSaint]

Folks can do some stuff forging that can't easily be done with stock reduction (although you can probably come awful close with the right tooling) and folks can do things with stock reduction that can't be easily done at the forge. They seem pretty equal to me, although only one of the two methods is necessary to make a knife (at least a sharpened one).

There are some guys out there that hammer knives who I admire and others who grind them. I don't think either makes a better knife because of one technique or the other. I do think that it's pure folly to put ourselves above any other maker based solely on this criteria. Some very renowned makers come from both camps and I'd be proud to be considered in a league with them.

 

[Leatherface]

You mean the ABS forges? You mean they represent some kind of smithing tradition?

I thought it was just a fit and finish outfit...

heheheahahahahahahaahahaahahaahahaaha...now that is just all kinds of funny!!!

Seriously, I think if you just took a flat bar and rough forged a tang on one end, a point on the other, and put a few dents along the edge,... it would be passable. Or,... maybe even just take a round bar, flatten it out into a banana shaped profile.

They really ought to think about limiting stock reduction, at least on the test knives. Even something real easy like no more than 20 percent by weight. They also ought to think about outlawing belt grinders (and powers tools) on the test knives. Those things have done more damage to the craft of bladesmithing than anything else I can think of... but I guess it's already too late.

the above is something that i have wondered about...I rented a video not to long ago about how to forge a knife and one of the first things this "Master Smith" shows is the KMG belt sander AND he even used it to grind the bevels etc...I honestly laughed at the video and the irony of it all....Then went and bought the Lively video and watched that..much better and no inate hypocrisy

So my query to you is this...just how much "Forgeing" should a knife have done to it, till you can consider it a forged blade?

Equally so, anyone, with a little practice, can learn to forge a blade. They are both, after all, learned skills.

total agreement...Course I will suck at both once i learn to forge, but the DESIRE to suck at both is what is what is important to me...that and I can of course drink a mighty good swig of the ABS kool-aid on how much better the knife is if I beat on it a little

 

[Tai Goo]

So my query to you is this...just how much "Forgeing" should a knife have done to it, till you can consider it a forged blade?

That's the problem! You can consider just about any amount of forging, or hot working by any means, a forged blade,... Stretch a ball bearing out into a flat bar with a power hammer, roll forge a tang with a hot rolling mill, or use a press to squish it a little,... then just take it to the belt grinder. I used to do stuff like that a long time ago, and always felt like I was cheating myself. I didn't feel like a "real" bladesmith. Now, I strictly use hand hammers to forge with and limit the use of power tools, doing the stock reduction primarily with files. I consider a blade "well forged" if taking it to a belt grinder afterwards would only screw it up. I also think that if you plan on doing the stock reduction by hand before you even pick up a hammer, you will make a sincere effort to forge as closely to shape as you can...

...as closely to shape as you can.

That's how you get good at it!

 

[csc]

I also think that if you plan on doing the stock reduction by hand before you even pick up a hammer, you will make a sincere effort to forge as closely to shape as you can...

...as closely to shape as you can.

That's how you get good at it!

I heard a very similar sentiment from Don Fogg in a hammer-in demonstration several years ago. There are few Bladesmiths out there who abandon the power tools and grinders and make knives for the joy of forging. I have thought of doing it for quite a while now but have yet to unplug. Of course power hammers have been around a very long time also, just depends how far back in history you want to go.
chad

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

one word- "decarb"

 

[Leatherface]

one word- "decarb"

one more word...huh?

 

[Tai Goo]

Three words- contained reduction atmosphere.

One more word- Skill.

 

[JTknives]

one more word...huh?

haha i love it

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

What! Tai what you describe could eliminate some of that decarb while in the forge! You must be assuming that I thought decarb was a bad thing, thank goodness you have to expose the steel to the air when actually working it or you could retain some carbon doing the metalurgical nonsense you describe! Carbon makes steel hard! Hard makes steel brittle! If you like broken blades you just keep doing what you are doing.

Skill?? I have an even better word...

Magic! :thumbup:

If we would stop messing around with all this scientific atmospheric nonsense, we may actually have time to get in touch with our own hidden abilities to affect our surroundings with our own energies! By channeling positive energies into the blade we should be able to create an unbalance in the equilibrium for that carbon and get it to leave the steel quicker! But for folks like you who prefer the blades that break and won't flex negative energies should be able to draw carbon out of the fire and into the blade.

Sure go ahead and make fun of my beliefs but before all this modern technical pollution crippled our innate abilities that was the way we did things, and it worked for thousands of years!

 

[Tai Goo]

Kevin, I don't want to add or subtract any substantial amount of carbon, I want to break even, and balance the give and take of the atmosphere inside the forge and the atmosphere outside the forge. If you can't break close to even, how the heck are you supposed to know how to heat treat it? However, I also don't think that a little decarb is really any major problem, just use a little stock reduction to remove it. It shouldn’t take much. On the other hand adding carbon in the forge (or contaminating the steel with more carbon), could be a real problem, because chances are it won't be homogenous along the edge.

Can I have two more words?- experience and common sense.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

What good is homogeneity or your scientific atmospheric theory if the blade snaps in use? The more carbon you keep in there the more extreme you will have to go with sharpening tools. As far as knowing how to heat treat it, in your own words- experience, skill, common sense and intuition! It is nowhere near as important to know what you are working with as it is to know how to work it!

 

[marekz]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL THIS NEWBIE WTF IS GOING ON. WHAT IS FORGING VERSUS STOCK REDUCTION---I THOUGHT THAT "PRIMAL" FORGING IS TO FORGE SOME STEEL-BEAT IT TILL YOUR HAPPY-THEN USE STONES OR FILES TO " STOCK REDUCE". SO IS THE ARGUMENT ( ATLEST I THINK THERE IS A ARGUMENT) THAT IF A FORGER OF TODY USES A BELT SANDER AFTER FORGING - HE IS NOT BEING TRUE TO THE CRAFT. CAN SOME JUST FLAT OUT SAY WHAT THE ISSUES/DISTINCTIONS ARE SO THAT I CAN WRAP MY LITTLE SHITEHOLE OF A MIND AROUND IT. sorry about the caps yall--mark

 

[Tai Goo]

I think Kevin has suffered too many blows to the head,... or maybe flux fumes are finally taking their toll. LOL

 

[Tai Goo]

I've met them in lab coats, too, working for a major pharmaceutical corporation, with degrees from fancy schools.

LOL!

It's easier to teach those kind of chimps how to heat treat,... than it is to hot forge a blade.

 

[Leatherface]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL THIS NEWBIE WTF IS GOING ON. WHAT IS FORGING VERSUS STOCK REDUCTION---I THOUGHT THAT "PRIMAL" FORGING IS TO FORGE SOME STEEL-BEAT IT TILL YOUR HAPPY-THEN USE STONES OR FILES TO " STOCK REDUCE". SO IS THE ARGUMENT ( ATLEST I THINK THERE IS A ARGUMENT) THAT IF A FORGER OF TODY USES A BELT SANDER AFTER FORGING - HE IS NOT BEING TRUE TO THE CRAFT. CAN SOME JUST FLAT OUT SAY WHAT THE ISSUES/DISTINCTIONS ARE SO THAT I CAN WRAP MY LITTLE SHITEHOLE OF A MIND AROUND IT. sorry about the caps yall--mark

wow button stuck huh??

anywho

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure the question is HOW MUCH stock removal ya use in that forged knife is still in question

hmm...I can profile and hunk of 5160, heat it up in a homemade forge and beat the tang a little and then just make the knife normally...hmm I see ABS "JS" stamp in my future!!

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

wow button stuck huh??

anywho

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure the question is HOW MUCH stock removal ya use in that forged knife is still in question

hmm...I can profile and hunk of 5160, heat it up in a homemade forge and beat the tang a little and then just make the knife normally...hmm I see ABS "JS" stamp in my future!!

I sometimes tap on a blank with a hammer while loading it into a fixture on a CNC mill. That counts right? I want a stamp too...

Kevin, if you go off the deep end and the folks in the white coats come to take you away... can I have your salt pots?...