ABS Forging, what counts ?.

[Sam Salvati]

I know you are probably kidding, but,... no you don't need to do a lot of stock reduction to get a really nice pattern on damascus. In fact you can actually get a much more interesting pattern by forging it very closely to shape, taking the edge down thin. You need to start off with a very fine pattern with lots of layers, and the forging distresses the surface pattern giving it lot more activity than the typical ground bevels. It's easy to spot the difference once you recognize it.

What if the pattern you are trying to bring out doesn't involve lots of layers? "Interesting" is a matter of opinion, sounds like forging real close without the use of a grinder, or less use of a grinder I should say, is limiting what you can do as far as damascus, while a grinder offers complete freedom (considering you made the original damascus bar, in which case the grinder is merely another tool to enhance the work from the forge).

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Depends on the pattern, Sam.
If you've got a nice Ladder pattern, you may want to only do stock removal so as not to distort the pattern you just spent three hours making!
However, if you have a nice random or twist, I often take a ball piene hammer and just beat the snot out of it just to distort the layers in side! When you finally grind down to your finished dimension and etch, you get fabulous chatoyance and really make the pattern come "alive"!
It can truly be a waste to NOT forge some patterns.

 

[Tai Goo]

I've actually done it both ways Sam... You are correct that it just depends on the effect you are trying to achieve. Lets just say you can get a more distressed pattern with a lot of interesting spontaneous looking activity, forging closely to shape. Another neat thing about it is it flows with the shape of the blade, has a very natural organic look, and shows the flow of forging very well.

If you want a very controlled mechanical looking pattern with not a lot of extra activity then heavy grinding would be the way to go. However, keep in mind you could do the same thing with a scraper and a file.

The only real point I'm trying to make is that, I think the ABS should have put more emphasis on "traditional" hand forging with hand hammers, from the very beginning... since they claim to represent the “tradition“.

... which is pointless to discuss at this point.
(No pun intended)

 

[Raymond Richard]

The only real point I'm trying to make is that, I think the ABS should have put more emphasis on "traditional" hand forging with hand hammers, from the very beginning... since they claim to represent the “tradition“.

... which is pointless to discuss at this point.
(No pun intended)

Well said........

 

[Tai Goo]

When the ABS was first starting out their basic premise was, we’re trying to make a “better” knife, (than stock reductionist). This premise was based upon two things, edge packing, (which resulted in a finer grain), and that Damascus steel resulted in hard and soft layers which gave the steel more resilience and toughness at higher hardness’s. Then, the metallurgists came along and said, “That’s not the way it works!“. So, it blew the premise right out of the water.

What was the purpose of forging from a metallurgical, and or professional standpoint?…

Many diehards didn’t want to let go of the idea of making a better knife… and obscurity set in.

Today you here some of the top ABS mastersmiths say that they forge because it’s the “coolest” way to make a knife,... which I think is true, plus it’s a lot of fun. However, from a professional standpoint it’s not enough.

The reason I hand forge closely to shape is because it is simply the most efficient way to get the type of fluid, natural, organic forms and “character” that I like… I like the forged look, and how the steel can be moved! Outside of that, I really can’t think of any reason for it.

 

[A C Richards]

"The reason I hand forge closely to shape is because it is simply the most efficient way to get the type of fluid, natural, organic forms and “character” that I like… I like the forged look, and how the steel can be moved! Outside of that, I really can’t think of any reason for it."

I agree, the only other reason is it is the only way to get Damascus. When I am in the mood to beat on some steel it is one of the most therapeutic things to do.

As far as the original question, Cold forging,in my opinion, would not meet the requirement put forth in the rules. Like Ed and Kevin pointed out it is much more than just beating out a blade.

JT have fun going through the process. It can be very nerve wracking but in the end very satisfying.

 

[Tai Goo]

The ABS is a good resourse for general information about knifemaking,... stock reduction, heat treating, fit and finish,... but if you want more than just an elementary working knowledge of "forging", there are better places to look.

... You can learn quite a bit about the plasticity of metal and how it can be formed with a hammer, through cold forging copper and other non ferrous metals. I'd also recommend a thorough study of ornamental blacksmithing and hot forging various metals.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my last post, that the ABS also tried to say forged blades were superior in performance to stock reduction blades, because of differential heat treating... but, that's heat treating and really has nothing to do with forging. LOL

 

[Don Hanson III]

Tai, good call on the early ABS blade forging myths. I'm sure there are a few who still believe

I forge because I enjoy it and find little joy in grinding..........
And my favorite steel is in round bar stock

 

[Tai Goo]

Don, you'll have to excuse my seriousness on those last few posts. hee hee

However, you are correct. I don't think the original mission statement will ever completely fade away, "Making a knife superior in performance to stock reduction". I also think that as the old myths do lose some ground, they will just be replaced with new myths, and it will drift further and further away from, "the true universal tradition of bladesmithing"...

 

[Don Hanson III]

Don, you'll have to excuse my seriousness on those last few posts. hee hee

I was worried for ya, bro.
Life's too short for seriosness

 

[Tai Goo]

LOL

Don, what goes around comes around. It's all a bunch of interconnected cycles. My personal feeling is that this whole current "era of bladesmithing” we are in, (at least here in the USA), will eventually just been seen as a little blurb or anomaly in the overall world history of bladesmithing.

Bladesmithing is a force of nature!

 

[Don Hanson III]

Cycles, you are right, Tai.

I'm an ABS member but have never really been involved in the ABS. Never been to the school or hammer-in. One can belong, but also do his on thing. Like you, I have friends in and out of the org. It is what it is, just a group of knife makers and all groups have their pluses and minuses

 

[sunshadow]

The ABS is a good resourse for general information about knifemaking,... stock reduction, heat treating, fit and finish,... but if you want more than just an elementary working knowledge of "forging", there are better places to look.

... You can learn quite a bit about the plasticity of metal and how it can be formed with a hammer, through cold forging copper and other non ferrous metals. I'd also recommend a thorough study of ornamental blacksmithing and hot forging various metals.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my last post, that the ABS also tried to say forged blades were superior in performance to stock reduction blades, because of differential heat treating... but, that's heat treating and really has nothing to do with forging. LOL

I forge because it is a way to shape metal in a primal synergy with the properties of the metal. When the hammer provides the impetus and rythm the metal dances.
Anybody can, with a little practice, grind a knife out of a bar of steel. There are a lot of people making much more money at knifemaking than I am using a bandsaw, waterjet, laser, whatever to blank shapes, then grinding them into knife shaped objects, paying someone else to heat treat them, (or heat treating them themselves) finishing them and selling them.
As a beginner I did stock removal, I made clean industrial looking knives like many stock removers do, then I discovered what you can do with fire and a hammer. My knives do not look as industrially clean and precise as they used to when I turned most of my metal to dust, I forge as close as I can to final shape (+ an allowance for decarb) which means I often find myself making the difficult choice of where do I stop grinding and just live with a slightly too deep hammermark.
There is something primal about fire, a hammer, and steel that the stock removers will never understand, and if they want to be in the ABS my personal opinion is that that bladeSMITHING involves shaping a blade in the traditional manner, IE SMITHING it, derived from the verb SMITE meaning to hit

(ducking)

-Page

 

[fitzo]

....Anybody can, with a little practice, grind a knife out of a bar of steel.
-Page

Equally so, anyone, with a little practice, can learn to forge a blade. They are both, after all, learned skills.

 

[JTknives]

i agree with sunshadow. but this i must say. im a stock remover mostley because of where i work. but it has taken me a long time and a lot of practis to get where i am to day. i could say the same thing, that any one can forge with some practis. but i think the defining line is that there is a huge diffrince in being able to do somthing and doing somthing good. i love forging and stock removial, i dont think ther is just one way to do things. look around you and take from life all things that are good.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Both skills take a hell-of-a lot of practice and time to master. The forger must learn both!

 

[Tai Goo]

Does rubbing it with a stone still count as stock reduction?

 

[sunshadow]

Both skills take a hell-of-a lot of practice and time to master. The forger must learn both!

Absolutely!
learning to grind well is like learning to play scales and Hannon excercises on the piano, it gives you the basic mechanics of the instrument, learning to forge is like the day you realize you can play more than what someone has written on the sheet music, it is the transcendant step to artistic freedom.

-Page

 

[Tai Goo]

LOL
From everything I’ve ever read, the very first ferrous metal blades were made by pseudo human cavemen, who work iron meteorites into blades by rubbing them with stones, stock reduction… It doesn’t get more “primal” than that! The only things that have changed are the tools and technologies.

Stock reduction in essence, is just a simple subtractive process,… whereas forging is a plastic art. In essence, forging is a much more “sophisticated” and complicated process that involves higher human brain functions.

I would have to say that the concept of forging is much harder to understand and to grasp, let alone practice,… from a historical perspective.

 

[fitzo]

I can understand how some people can feel that forging steel is the transcendent part of knifemaking for them. It is a wonderful skill, and expands ones repertoire of skills in a vastly potential skillset. That said, there are many other skills that are equally important. Few stand tall enough to dimish Lloyd Hale because he doesn't forge the blades.

Forging a blade may define a given knife or knifemaker, but it doesn't define the epitome of knifemaking other than as a personal preference. The field of skills is too large to point to any individual skill as "it".

Tai, I might argue with you that plastic formation is a necessarily higher brain function than mere stock removal ....St Theresa