ABS Forging, what counts ?.

[Tai Goo]

Can I have two more words?- Knife farming.

 

[csc]

hmmm-purist

 

[Tai Goo]

Chimp with ABS potential:

 

[JTknives]

what did i start

 

[AcridSaint]

I sometimes tap on a blank with a hammer while loading it into a fixture on a CNC mill. That counts right? I want a stamp too...

Kevin, if you go off the deep end and the folks in the white coats come to take you away... can I have your salt pots?...

I "cold forge" my pins sometimes, does that count also?

 

[Tai Goo]

...(inside joke)...

 

[Stuart Willis]

Since we are on the ABS questions. Why is a forged hawk from stock not considered in the ABS tests, There's a whole lotta of forging in them. I have just always wondered about that. This question may be a whole different can of worms. Could I get a stamp to? Maybe that would be a hawksmith instead of a bladesmith. Just my ramblings............

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I "cold forge" my pins sometimes, does that count also?

Hell yeah! Instead of a JS stamp, or an MS stamp, I'm thinking a BS stamp. And I don't mean "BladeSmith" or "Bachelors of Science"...

 

[NickWheeler]

Mark, nobody has given you a straight answer because nobody actually knows what is going on here

Here's the skinny of it.

The original topic that starts these kinds of fires is, "How much do I have to actually forge to call the finished knife a forged knife?"

While I think JT was just thinking out loud (don't do that again JT )... Many people come up with all kinds of weird ideas about this... hence Ed Caffrey's great post.

There are some makers that whack on some hot steel, make it look like a tongue depressor, and then call it forged. There are some (few) like Tai that can/do forge down so close to shape you could do the finishing stock removal with one of those tiny files on a set of nail clippers.

Once upon a time, the bladesmith guys felt their knives were much superior to stock removal blades, but in more recent years it has come down to many other things... but not superiority. And I think the "elitist" mentality is pretty much non-existant. It's usually more evident in a few stock removal makers that THINK it exists.

The ABS is here to preserve the art of the forged blade. So when people start talking about doing silly things and calling it a forged blade, there's bound to be some folks upset by it.

I could not articulate my thoughts any better than Mike Fitzgerald (Fitzo)'s post regarding his thoughts on the matter.

I forge very close to shape as it's a pleasure to do so (not as close as Tai). I don't have to... I don't have to make knives at all.... I do what I enjoy....

BUT!!! IF you want to get an ABS stamp... THEN... I feel you HAVE to forge awfully close to shape at least for the test knives or otherwise you're just trying to fool everybody (but you can't fool yourself, now can 'ya?)

 

[Dan Seaver]

Kevin with all these crazy concepts you show us; I gotta ask a question. Have you been eating the key to the universe?
Doesn't steel need to be hard in order to hold a good edge? If it wasn't hard the edge would start rolling when used in chopping and would be easier to wear down when slicing, right? If a knife is easy to sharpen then it is easy to dull, eh?

I'll shut up before I become more confused :foot:.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Kevin with all these crazy concepts you show us; I gotta ask a question. Have you been eating the key to the universe?
Doesn't steel need to be hard in order to hold a good edge? If it wasn't hard the edge would start rolling when used in chopping and would be easier to wear down when slicing, right? If a knife is easy to sharpen then it is easy to dull, eh?

I'll shut up before I become more confused :foot:.

Ya see! I knew this was gonna happen...

Kevin is off his meds today. Please disregard the above ramblings...

 

[marekz]

wow this is very interesting. So are some people saying that the ABS does NOT make their testers forge and hammer close to shape? Is that the sarcasm about it all, that some people think that they are not the "traditions keeper". i thought in order to pass a JS ABS test you have to show that you can forge a blade to shape/or close to shape--so maybe im mistaken. Why do some of the members here act like the ABS is a joke. I mean if ABS does state that they are the orginization to preserve the art of knifemaking what arent they doing that makes some people view them with contempt.--mark

 

[AcridSaint]

Mark - I don't want to get too involved in the serious part of the thread, but the deal is that you have to be willing to prove you can forge a knife. If no one ever asks you to do it in front of them, then you don't have to prove you can do it. To test, you just have to show up with your knife, to get rated you just have to show up with your JS or MS knives, no-one watches you make them unless they don't believe you're capable like Ed mentioned before.

The contempt bit I won't go into detail on, but I think some folks have a view that being an ABS member or just forging knives makes them better than other folks and it gets on the nerves of some of those "other" folks. This doesn't necessarily mean the whole ABS is bad (in my view), but sometimes politics work funny and some people see things differently. No disrespect to anyone who is an ABS member, nor any to folks who don't have any love for the ABS.

 

[marekz]

well i am interested in abs because in my opinion if i follow the program i feel i will learn a great deal. since i am new i look for resources to help me improve my craft. I first got a glimpse of the what i call contemptment for the abs when i spoke to a knife maker and he sorta frowned about it. since then i was wondering why. Now i feel a bit confused as to what i want to do. why couldnt i follow the abs path and maybe some day achieve being a master smith. would that mean i would loose all my humility? would i frown upon a maker who has been making knives for 60 years without an ABS label? would i have totally missed the point of knife making because the ABS brainwashed me in someway? Will i be a total fake and have passed all my tests with someone elses knives? I dont think so. I think i would be grateful of the sharing of knowledge and support the ABS offers. I think the ABS is made up of individuals sharing this craft with each other and whoever wants to learn. I stress individuals--what one may think about an arrogant abs member tthoughts, may be generalizing and labeling the whole of abs with the mistaken understanding of what the the abs actually is. what one member may think doesnt mean all the members think that way. As far as some abs members looking down on non abs members--well they too are missing the point-----but what the hell do i know, im not even an abs apprentice yet and i havent been around long enough to fully understand the politics. i just know i love making knives and i want to learn as much as i can0/..--sorry for the ramble--mark

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Why do some of the members here act like the ABS is a joke. I mean if ABS does state that they are the orginization to preserve the art of knifemaking what arent they doing that makes some people view them with contempt.--mark

Nobody here thinks the ABS is a joke. Please don't interpret anything *I've* said as showing the ABS contempt (the MS, JS, BS stamp joking). ABS Smiths are a big deal. I have contempt for folks who want to be in the organization for the prestige but have little real interest in *forging*. (I'm not talking about you J Rod).

When you go to a big show or go over to the custom & handmade knives forum, the ABS folks have reached deity status. Some stock removers want to be a part of that, but they're not forging smiths, which makes some folks do weird things...

 

[fitzo]

It's a big custom knife world out there. The big money spent on all different kinds of high-end knives says there is room for everyone.

 

[JTknives]

I have contempt for folks who want to be in the organization for the prestige but have little real interest in *forging*. (I'm not talking about you J Rod).

thanks, i do love forging. i would love to abtane the skills need to deserve a stamp. i think im allways looking for ways to check my skills. i would not want a stamp if i had not earned it 100%.

 

[Rusty McDonald]

Cant we all Just Get along?
This Thread is going the way of the "Political Threads" over in the community channel.

Some forge, some forge better than others or closer to finished than others (saves money on materials in my opinion) But this takes time to learn. In my opinion this is what the ABS brings to the table. ABS has started schools for forging blades, taught by great smiths, that have given their time to teach those willing to learn.
Just one question I want to have answered.
Should there be a differance between Bladesmith and Knifemaker?
I dont think so.

 

[A C Richards]

Here is what happened to me when I took my JS performance test. I went down to the Pomona Forging Clinic, I had spoken to Red St Cyr and he told me to be prepared to forge a blade to shape, of the judges choosing. When I arrived and got ready for the test, Joe Keesler was to be my judge. He chose a full tang drop point hunter. I forged the profile and had most of the bevels. It had double distal tapers, one to the point and one to the pommel. I was not qite finished and he told me he had seen enough and we moved on to the remainder of the test. If you are known and have forged in front of a few smith's you may not have to do this portion of the test. As far as how much is considered enough to be considered forged, that has to be a personal issue. Like Kick said some flatten out a piece of steel (sort of) in the shape of a tongue depressor and call it good. If asked by a customer I would like to think this would be divulged.

 

[JTknives]

For me how i feal is that as a knife maker i want to make the best knives i can. and if thar means forging or stock removing then so be it. each has its purposes. like if im making some valor knives i need 1/8" pg stock and i get better quality by stock removing. but if i want to make a knife from material that i can onley get in large sizes like my 2.5 inch by 8 foot long round of L6 im going to need to forge. i just dont see why there is such a devide between knife makers. are we not trying to make the best knife we can. if it helps i guess you could think of stock removers as using forged steel as it gets forged down to size in the factory right . Let the love of knife making bring us together.