advise needed on selection of steel for short sword

X

xman

Joined
Jun 3, 2000
Messages
239
Im getting a short sword made.
19" blade 27.5" overall, Handle and a half grip, Fish belly tip, blade catcher blade side only, plus skull crusher which is the .5"
Im still researching on material for the handle.
I require advise on steel type.
This is a no nonsense, not for display. To be relied upon if called for..

Suggestion anyone??
 
CPM3V. It's greater toughness allows the blade to be thinner (more efficient cutting, lighter blade, all sorts of other benefits) without sacrificing strength.

[edit]
Just wanted to add that I would recommend canvas Micarta for the handle. The canvas gives it a grippier texture than paper or linen Micarta, and Micarta itself is more durable and easier to clean than many other handle materials.
[/edit]
--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
Hi,
CPM-3V is good, but the price would be out of sight. In order to buy the thing I'd suggest: 5160, 1085, 1060 plain carbon steels.
Dan
 
Swords aren't cheap in any case. If you want something your life will depend on, I would strongly recommend CPM-3V for a stock removal blade or a forged composite damascus in tool steels.

In homogenous steels, CPM-3V is impressive, approaching S7 (jack hammer bits) in toughness.

If you want something less expensive, A2 will work pretty well.

I'd suggest you remember one thing though, whatever you choose, a short sword is only effective if it is well-balanced and fast. A slow (read heavy) blade, even if balanced by an extended handle, can be dangerous to use. You are not chopping wood, so anything that impedes your capacity to recover quickly from a stroke, enabling you to deliver another stroke or a parry is critical. Once the sword gets above about 1.5 oz. per blade inch, you're likely to find it difficult to maneuver unless you have a very strong wrist and forearm.

E_utopia's suggestion of Canvas Micarta is a good one. Depending on the handle style, a cord wrap is good also, since it can be replaced and not need to wear well.

My thoughts.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
5160 is all you need. If you want a good swordmaker at a good price check out. http://www.odinblades.com/
The typical forum hype that you have to have
CPM3V because you CAN is nonsense and a needless expense.
 
See, the problem with 5160 is that to have the same strength as 3V, you need more 5160. That's a physical constant of the metals (just like it takes a larger piece of plastic to have the same strength as steel). Being able to have less metal means there is less resistance to cutting and the blade will be lighter. I'm not saying that a 5160 sword will be a POS, just that a 3V sword will be better. It's up to the individual to decide wether the increase in performance is enough to justify the increase in cost, but there will be an increase in performance. I mean, I could drive to work in a Volkswagon, or I could drive to work in a Ferrari (actually, I drive something in between), and the Ferrari will out-perform the VW, but each individual has to decide if the increase in performance is enough to justify the increase in cost. Sure, the VW is all you need, just like 5160 is all you need, but wouldn't you honestly prefer the Ferrari, if you can afford it?

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
Jerry
What are we playing now? The who challenges the mighty knifemakers opinion game?
What are your qualifications that allow you to have an opion different than mine?
How about i spend as much time around blades as you do and the sword community hasn't thrown away all the proven old stand bys and flocked to 3v because there is no NEED to.
Does that satisfy you?

[This message has been edited by TomW (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
Originally posted by TomW:
Jerry
What are we playing now? The who challenges the mighty knifemakers opinion game?
What are your qualifications that allow you to have an opion different than mine?
How about i spend as much time around blades as you do and the sword community hasn't thrown away all the proven old stand bys and flocked to 3v because there is no NEED to.
Does that satisfy you?

Tom, I'm not playing a game. This is my job. My qualifications are based on experience with the steel itself. I handle blades everyday of the week, all day, and also have an extensive collection of blades other than my own.

I said nothing to suggest that other steels weren't suitable. I merely offered my opinion of what was best in the areas of stock removal and forged blade steels. If you have another opinion, that's fine, but it is you who took exception to my opinion. I simply asked for an explanation or some facts to support your disagreement.

As for "there is no NEED to," I disagree. There is always need to improve and use the best materials available when possible. And no, I'm not particularly satisfied.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
Click to expand...
 
Jerry
It's obvoius from your posts that you're hot on 3v. That doesn't mean it has to be shoved down everybodies throat that inquires about everything from a pen knife to a sword.
It may well be suiable for using on everything from pen knife to a sword but that doesn't make it the best choice no matter how much you like it.
The man can get a fine functional short sword from odin for less than $300. The cost of a decent knife. That in MY opinion and many in the sword community make it a better choice then the steel you're pushing. I don't have to be a knifemaker or meet YOUR criteria to be able to have and give an opinion.

[This message has been edited by TomW (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
Steel Steel Steel,
Around we go.....

I've had a couple with CMP3V and the blades were made with a thinner profile that provides for a more agressive edge, nothing wrong with stating that?

I've had some with A2, worked well also....

O1, did a good job, still does....

TomW, your response seems to be antagonistic, it was XMan's question, can we not leave it up to him to pick and choose as to the comments listed and leave the picking of others alone?

G2
 
xman,

You might want to talk to your maker and ask which steel they are used to working with so you get the best results for you buck.
I was at the last meeting of the club that I belong to and one of the knifemakers brought in a sword he had just finished. It was made from 440c, hollow ground, and a satin finish and had some flex to the blade.
I not a sword expert but I was impressed with the blade. It was a keeper.

Jeff
 
Jeff
I've had a piece of 440 steell embedded in my left shoulder for the past 8 years.
I'll never be anywhere near a 440 steel sword cutting anyting again.
This was not from a high quality sword
so it's really not fair to compare it to the sword you're speaking of
but most word lovers I know put even well done 44oc low on the preferred sword steels.
 
Tom, I honestly can't figure out what you're saying with your most recent post. I think you mean to say that 'lesser' steels than 3V will still work for swords. If that's what you mean to say, then I agree with you. But I have to say that something like 3V will work better. Whether the amount that it outperforms the 5160 (or whatever) is enough to justify the cost is up to the individual user. But you say that 3V is 'a needless expense,' which is a very antagonistic thing to say. Of course, it is very hard to say that we 'need' the knives we buy. Personally, I am willing to pay more for a knife (or sword when/if I buy one) because I believe in having the best tool for a given purpose that I can afford. If I was in a crunch, and I needed a sword, I would not say "oh, that's 5160, I won't even look at it." Assuming I could afford the 3V, though, I would choose that since it does outperform 5160. To counter your original statement, I wouldn't pay for "CPM3V because CAN", but because I wanted better performance, as felt that the price difference was justified.

--JB

P.S., based upon looking at the web site you linked to, I would say those sword are really just for show, and not for use. I could be wrong (they give almost no specifications, not even length, which makes me more suspicious), but I would not bet my life on one of those. Email Jerry and ask what he charges for one of his swords; you might be surprised.

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
The swords on that website are good working swords that don't break the bank you can have them any way you want them. As for 3v being better. That's a matter of opinion. As previously mentioned I don't see the sword community flocking to it and dont think that I will in the near future.
 
I agree with both Jerry and Tom. If you find a swordsmith who knows how to get the most out of 5160, or even 1084, with differential heat treating, you will get a great blade. However, the toughness and wear resistance specs for CPM3V significantly surpass either one. This is not hype, as far as I can see, but simply the documented expected performance of the steel. Based on the performance I have experienced with CPM420V in smaller blades, I am a believer in the CPM process. So right now, at least on paper, and from the few reports of people who have evaluated 3V blades, is looks to me like 3V is the best for big fighting blades where the optimum compromise between toughness and edge holding is desired. I think similar performance can be achieved with differential heat treating on low-alloy steels, but 3V, being uniformly heat treated as far as I know, seems to offer the durability advantage of having consistent stresses throughout the blade, and toughness that goes all the way to the edge, not just at the spine.
 
One point of fact also about the CPM3V is that it has an exceptional HIGH Charpy value, see below;

ATS-34/154CM (RC59) have about a 14 ft-lbs
CPM440V and CPM420V (RC58/59) have a 16-18 ft-lbs
440C (RC57) is at 26 ft-lbs
D2 (RC59) is at 22 ft-lbs

CPM3V (RC58) is at 85 ft-lbs
and at (RC60) is at an impressive 50 ft-lbs.

The Charpy impact resistance is measured in a laboratory and shows that the CPM3V has very favourable features regarding HIGH impact, such as with a swords requirements.

(info taken from February 1999, Knives Illustrated, page 95)

G2


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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...

G2 LeatherWorks
 
Anyone have the Charpy's for 5160, just finish up the point that G2 started?

Also, I would like to point out that 3V has the added benefit that it is stainless, but doesn't suffer from the same problems as ordinary stainless steels due to the CPM process, which raises the alloy levels above what is even physically possible in normal manufacturing of steel. As an engineer, I just have to be impressed by the elegant simplicty of what Crucible is doing there.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I don't think 3V actually claims to be stainless. From what I have heard it falls in the gray area of steels that don't rust readily, but will stain and discolor, along with D-2.
 
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