advise needed on selection of steel for short sword

TomW, this is the first time I have ever felt insulted or belittled on Bladeforums. Thanks. I would gladly continue this debate with you via e-mail, however you have not seen fit to include an address in your profile. If you wish to direct any further comments to me, you are welcome to e-mail me.
 
Settle down Beavis!
wink.gif

Or take it to W&C.

Oh, and please... don't anyone take THIS too seriously....

------------------
iktomi
 
I'd say that there is more than enough blame to go around in this thread.

Everyone that's getting all hot under the collar needs to take a couple steps back and chill out right now.

Last time I checked, good discussion didn't include insulting each other as part of the requirements, so lets do everyone a favor and leave them out of it.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
In Tom's Defense that article where I got the Charpy's value, there was a little more written where they say the following;

"I would expect to see very good cutting and edge holding performance, with impact resistance similar to 5160. The compromise will be primarily in the area of corrosion resistance"

again, this is taken from Knives Illustrated, Feb 1999 on page 95

They don't list the Charpy value of the 5160 but do make a favourable comparison to it and CPM3V.....

G2

------------------
"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...

G2 LeatherWorks
 
Gary
The thing that I see making it difficult to compare on a chart like charpy is that I don't know how they apply it to blades. A lot happens to a piece of steel
in the forging process that doesn't happen in stock removal steels.
If you look at the thread about 5160 and see what the master bladesmith has to say about it blades will very likely vary greatly just between bladesmiths.
You listed stock removal blades.
We have people yelling that the chart showed FACTS. That's because they wanted to see facts bad enough to imagine them. I don't see that anything in this thread showed facts.
Now if we were comparing finished blades it would be a very interesting chart. We rarely see any data in print that actually compares finished blades so I feel that a lot of charts are of limited use.
Having ones mind made up that V is the ultimate and THEN looking for data to back it up is the direct opposite of how we are supposed to come to a conclusion. I also see that in this thread and in the forums in general.
Then there is the "how dare you question the super steel" or shall I say "who are you to question the super knifemaker" when I think that it's essential to question all claims made in regards to the steel and performance of a blade.
That is the correct way to come to a conclusion.
 
MAN, YOU PEOPLE NEED TO RELAX A LITTLE. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT DISCUSSING KNIVES AND HAVING FUN DOING IT.

SPARK,
I THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT IDEA, JUST HOPE A FEW BAD APPLES DON'T SPOIL THE BUNCH!

 
The Charpy values denote the impact resistance of a material. Various forging techniques can make some difference, in that they create localised changes in the matrix of the steel, resulting in small differences in some of the properties. Great forging technique, however, could not make a 440C blade (Charpy 26 ft-lbs) as good as a 3V blade (Charpy 85 ft-lbs), both at 57 or 58 Rc, in terms of impact resistance, anyway. That's based on the fundamental laws which govern the univers. You might as well turn off gravity, or some other nonsense. This is what are called 'facts.' I really wish I had the Charpy for heat-treated 5160 handy, but I don't. If anyone can get it, we could put this issue to bed once and for all. I don't, but I can assure you based upon the data for low-hardness 5160 that it will not compete.

Let me ask you this, Tom: is it your conetention that 5160 is actually better than 3V? You have skirted the issue, never saying it alond, but have implied that you consider it to actually be better, not just better for the money.

--JB

P.S., that chart was not something Gary came up with to support 3V, it was taken from a magazine. Therefore, he didn't just find it to support the theory that 3V is better. Actually, come to think of it, for quite a while, I was very skeptical of all the CPM steels. Being an engineer, I took a long time to look at every bit of data I could find, before accepting that they are, in fact, quite amazing steels if you can afford them. That means I did not say '3V is great,' then look for data to support that, so your hypothesis is flawed.

------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I never said that 5160 was better than v or even as good. What i did do was raise a question. Come to think of it none of you have found anything to PROVE that it makes a better sword. If you find your charpy data that isn't likely going to prove it makes a better sword either for the reasons mentioned in my previous post.
That was already explained but I have to remember I'm talking to an engineer.
I like to question things when i see them agressively pushed by a knifemaker or his groupies. Questioning things is always good as much as the knife gods and self appointed experts don't like to see it.
It's good for people that are new to knives and good for us that have been around for a while and set in our ways to look at things again. It's already brought quite a few people to take a new look at 5160 with some of them never having looked at it before since as Mr. Fisk says it's not "IN"
I'd like to see more people question the gods and SAEs. It can be very educational.
I don't have to be right and you don't have to be wrong for a question to educate.
I've met lots of people in my life that can't stand being proven wrong but it's really pathetic when I see people that can't stand to have their opinions questioned.


 
Time for certain parties who know who they are to studiously ignore each other's posts, or at least not respond before having had 8 hours of sleep in the interim.

Or should we drop this heated discussion of "What's the best steel?" and change the subject ot "What's the best religion?" until we all calm down?

YEEEESH!!!!
rolleyes.gif
eek.gif
redface.gif



------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Only a fool would discount Tom's opinion. Sugjesting Tom does not know about blades or talks hype is crazy.
 
eutopia, I use to have it somewere, in fact I might have posted 5160's charpy value in the H.I. forum over a year ago, but am not sure. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that it is no were near as high as 3V even when forged.

db, that comment of yours tries to give more credit to one poster than another. I can also say to you, do not take what eutopia says lightly for he knows what he talks about. We can all start screaming our qualifications here, but it would be pointless. One thing most of us have in common here is that we are head strong and speak our minds and think we know it all.

Now getting back to the point. I agree with Tom that 5160 is a great big blade steel and for the money there may not be anything better. just ask H.I. owners about this and also G.H. owners. I would bet that 3V is much tougher, but you will pay a lot more also. Is it worth the money. That's up to you to decide. I like both, but don't have any 3V as of yet. Maybe I will soon, who knows. I do have plenty of 5160 and like it.
 
Cobalt,

There are many folks within the knife industry who know what they are talking about and who are highly skilled, yet the opinions differ from knife maker to knife maker. Some will aggree on certain things while disagreeing on others and they all make sense when they present their reasoning.

This is not an exact science and as other sciences there is a good deal based on theory. For example, go and order a fighter, from five differant makers, you wont get the same knife. Each holds to differing theories as to what makes the best fighter. I dont think that many realize this. Especially new people coming onto the forums who are new to knives.

Has Tom got a point about the talk about CPM 3V sounding like Hype--I think so, and I explained in my post why I opted for the steel in a few knives and a short sword. Is the potential there to really hype this stuff up--I can see that too.

BTW,

Tom, I never answered your question on my short sword, I asked Ed and he showed you one that is similiar. If you have questions on the CPM 3V, I would ask him as he has been working with the steel for a year and a half now. It is the primary steel he uses and I know he has advised a couple of makers on its heat treat. I would also ask Darrel Ralph, who uses it for his fighters. He performed a few real hard tests on the steel and he was amazed by the steel's performance. Also R.J.Martin is very familiar with it as well. These makers are also adept at the steel's heat treat which is pretty difficult.


 
Donna, Tom did have a good point and I'm in full agreement with it. Most new steels are a lot more hype than performance and you have to be wary. But again we don't need to mention what one persons qualifications are without knowing the other persons. Never assume your opponent to be inferior.

Darrel quote's:

"step up wedge test on my son into half moon shapes but it would take time to remove the scale and decarb "---- Darrel, I don't really think it is important what you did with your son here.

"My opinion from from years of study "---- So you mean you have no practical experience.

"I hit it with a 2 pound hammer many times and chucked up after that. "---- Darrel, I think anyone would chuck up after hitting it with a 2 pound hammer.

"It was about 3 inches hanging to the tip ."---- Darrel, I don't feel it is important for us to know you this well.

"Please DO NOT TAKE MY POST OUT OF CONTEXT.
Post it all or dont post any of it."--- why would anyone do this, Darrel.


 
Cobalt
I dont get it.
biggrin.gif

What post? . Are you seeing things again?
Thats not in my post. This is
biggrin.gif
.



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
Darrel,

I am sorry to see that you deleted that very, very informative and well thought out post because of Cobalt's asinine comments.

Cobalt,

I always thought of your posts as real witty and at first I thought you were kidding in parts of your post to Darrel, and then I realized that you were not joking. I am glad that you are such an expert and that you know more about knives than Darrel who is a highly regarded and sought after knifemaker. Whether you like the style of his knives or not, the man has over a two year waiting list. He has to have something that a lot of folks really like. Hell Cobalt, you should be making knives. We are all going to the wrong knifemakers here. Hell the experts on these boards know a good deal more than the experienced knifemakers. Its good to know that there are so many experts all hanging in one place. Or have we failed to miss the knowledge that there is only one true knifemaking god, and that the rest of these guys out there are just a bunch of hacks?



[This message has been edited by Donna Barnas (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
Back to the topic at hand.

Judging by the sword you want, you want something that is more-or-less no frills working sword.

I would hesitate to call it a sword if you plan on using it for hacking branches or otherwise misusing and disrespecting it in such a manner. But it is your perogative to do what you wish with it.

For steel...take your pic. Are you making the blade yourself? Practice and explore. Are you going to have a custom maker build it for you? Ask him what he is most familiarized with and which materials he is most pleased with his methods.

I do not deny CPM3V in capability, it's a fine and dandy steel. Good for it. If the maker isn't happy with using it and feels he could make a better blade of something else, then by George let him give it a whirl doing it his way. But it's a great steel and when worked right will result in a blade you can be proud of.

5160--Good steel! Great properties, heat treats nicely, very forgiving to errors. Heat treats nicely and will last. Again, if this is what the maker thinks will do a great job, don't worry about it!

1050, 1060, 1084, etc...simple steels are all great when treated right. Also easily accessible and so on.

Screw the bickering and arguing about which steels are superior to others. The game is a series of tradeoffs...you aren't going to make an inferior blade unless it's worked and heat treated in an inferior way.

The steel is only part of it. You can take 1045 and make a decent sword out of it if ya want.

Part of what makes blades special is the individuality imparted into each piece. If we try to force one steel or another down a person's throat, are we giving them the benefit of choices and experimentation?

When will we stop bickering about it? Honestly, I could give a damn less about this or that steel. These threads turn into a flame war that is absolutely pointless.

If you run across a maker who suggests using 3v, and you plan on having him make the blade, then let him make it out of 3v.

If you want to make the blade yourself, try stuff out, find what works for you, grow with your expanding knowlege and make the best damn things you can with whatever you can.

1075, L6, 3v, 420v, A2, D2, O1, W2, 1050, 5160, 52100, M2, S5, etc etc etc will all yield great blades when done well. Take your pic, and find a maker who will do a good job with it. I like traditional swords, so I'm biased here, but if you want a "modernized" sword, you can pick whatever simple steels or alloys you want. You can still get a hell of a blade.

Good luck,
Robert.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top