advise needed on selection of steel for short sword

Robert, first welcome to the forums and second, very nice First Post!

I believe you hit the nail on the head. This should end this debate on a good note...

G2
 
Robert :

I would hesitate to call it a sword if you plan on using it for hacking branches or otherwise misusing and disrespecting it in such a manner.
Click to expand...

What exactly is it about swords that makes it disrespectful to cut wood with them? Bone (most types ) is harder than wood (most types), plus a lot of primitive protection was wood based which swords had to be able to cut through, not to mention modern protection which is going to be far worse.

The sword blades I have seen have very similar profiles to heavy chopping blades (I have not seen a lot, but then again there are only a few basic geometries). Either they are flat (full or sabre) similar to the Busse Battle Mistress, or have deep hollow grinds such as the Project I from Chris Reeve, or are convex like khukuris. The latter is an interesting blade as the longer khukuris are very sword like - Kumar Kobra for example.

I was curious to see how a sword would be reviewed by the HI crowd once Bill started bring them in, as knives as weapons are of little interest to me so I have little experience with functional use in that regards. The reviewers all chopped up wood as part of the review - it was not the only part, but it was present. The swords held up fine, no problems, and in fact performed very well, better than the khukuris in some regards.

Khukuris in general go strongly against this argument as the Bando people (khukuri based martial art) all chop wood with the blades they train to fight with.

Robert, you do make an excellent point about makers choice. If they haven't worked with a steel and you force it upon them, you are probably not going to like the result.

-Cliff
 
Donna, it was a joke, unfortunately you seem a little uptight. Your problem not mine. Chow bella.
 
xman, I hope you're happy with all the trouble you've caused?

Oh, wait a minute you just asked a simple question, and then all the egos, opinions and attitudes came into it. Good move on your part not to jump back in.
wink.gif


Bob, great first post, well written, intelligent and to the point. I don't see much of a future here for you (JOKE).

------------------
"Will work 4 Knives!"
Homepage: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=254126
 
Cliff
You have a great point. For modern swords .
Although you missed Roberts other statment.

ROBERT SAID:I would hesitate to call it a sword if you plan on using it for hacking branches or otherwise misusing and
disrespecting it in such a manner. But it is your perogative to do what you wish with it.

ROBERT SAID THIS TO .
I like traditional swords, so I'm biased here,

This is the nuance that is lost when posts are cut for purposes other than original intent. His statement goes far deeper than what was understood by some.

Cliff Read a book about Japanese swords.
Not a modern version. He said traditional swords.
The Gurkas use khukuri's and have the same feeling as the Japanese. I dont know if they chop wood with them. I do know they worship there blades and the spirits of those they KILL with them.


Colbalt
This is the reason I put the disclaimer on the bottom of the posts that you thought was so funny. I explained every facet of the tests. It seems we just cant make off the cuff comments anymore without being bashed and ridiculed by the knife gurus who know not what they say. We have to bait ever post so that when used against us in the flame war we can CYA. What have we come to here. What the hell is the use.
The posts are taken out of context and then other folks think your nuts and a fool. This behaviour creates BS and flaming -not civil educated conversation. Phil says he's joking but makes a great point. The real tranlastion is lost as for intent. CYA THATS ALL. Roberts post went right over Cliffs head with just a few simple words. My point is not to belittle Cliff.
Its that I wouldnt be waisting time posting this if the intent of Roberts post was read, understood and reposted with orignal intent. I wouldnt have to. Respect would have given to all of his post not just what is picked over for flaming, misinformation and favorite manufactures BS hype.

He wasnt trying to say that swords wouldnt or couldnt chop wood. He said it is the users perogative to do so.... BUT NOT HIS. The Japanese will jail you for disrespect of a sword blade in some cases. The point is there is MORE to knives, blade types and styles than just cutting performance. There is a higher level
to knives and swords as weapons when they are use for purposes other than under the car seat choppers. Respect of the blade is just one facet. There is much more to knife styles and blade styles then these forums have to offer anymore. Ask the experts they can tell ya. Just ask them.

I know I got a little pissed here but maybe we need to take a look at the posts a bit more carefully. It is disrepectful to TRY TO CHALLANGE someone that makes a GREAT point by someone who is uneducated about the full purpose of the blade, knife style and intent of the post. Everyone wants to be an expert. Learn about knives and weapons first please.
All these flame style misleading and uneducated posts do is waste bandwidth for the self betterment of the person who is posting them.

A comment was made the other day in an eamil that fits here very well.
"Never argue with the experts. They will always beat you with experience."


Tom made a great point here also. Some folks want the best that is available and some dont. Some like super steels some dont. Some like there swords made as weapons and some dont feel it is nessasary.
There was no crime in what he said until the experts chimed in.
Tom is gruff cranky bastid that I respect. He
dont give a damned what people think of what his opinion is. It seems some do if its not there opinion and not in some spec sheet somewhere. What does Tom know that they dont? Alot. Heres an example.

Not everything about steels has been recorded in a book. These are the nuances that I feel are lost in this original post.
So let me ask the experts this.

What are the charpy impact test results of 5160 that is forged and diff tempered with a 48-50 rc backspine and tempered hard cutting edge at 58RC edge compaired to 3v full hard and tempered at the edge the same RC as the edge of the 5160.
At this point I feel were compairing apples to apples in modern sword blade building by a bladesmith that knows how to build them. Also what about a san mai core of 58 rc and a clay tempered backspine of a steel with less carbon? Say 1040. Impact results anyone? Cutting tests?
HUM
wink.gif


BTW: If your going to chop wood get an axe
that is built to cut wood. There cheaper.
10.99 at Sears.

Now go ahead and flame me as always.
We always flame what we do not understand or know.

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Senator
Well said. Give um rope and they hang thereselves.

The forums are getting to be like TV.
For entertainment purposes only. All acting with shallow BS posts so folks can be the frigin star.
Hell Tim Herman is much more entertaining then this crap. At least he knows BS when he see's it.



------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:

A comment was made the other day in an eamil that fits here very well.
"Never argue with the experts. They will always beat you with experience."


Actually the comment was, "Never argue with crazy people, because they will only drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience." Or, more simply, "Don't butt heads with Buttheads!"
wink.gif
Click to expand...
 
Xman, I'm curious to know if you've gotten the information from this thread that you thought you would? How do you feel about all the bs that has been added to answer a simple question? Seriously. Take care!! Michael

------------------
Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Darrel, that is exactly the point I was trying to make in a comic way, oh well. In any case, it is easy to take things out of context.

By the way, with all these great new steels out there, why is it that the old ones are still around if they are obsolete
smile.gif
 
From what I've picked up over at the Himalayan Imports forum and elsewhere, the Gurkhas and Nepalis in general use the khukuri as both a farm tool and a sword. It's for chopping up organic matter according to the circumstances - vegetation, firewood, skulls.... Daily use as a tool builds the familiarity that makes it a devastating weapon in experienced hands. Quite a different approach from the Japanese tradition where a sword never does mundane cutting chores.

As a farm tool, a khukuri gets a much rougher and readier finish than a traditional Japanese sword. Khukuris have probably improved in the last few decades with the introduction of recycled truck springs.



------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Jim
I have read about the Gurkha fighters that help our country in ww2 . BTW thanks for the info on the Khukuris . In the book it said that they believed the spirit of the person they killed was in the blade and believed them (the blade)to be evil after that. A different stroke than the Japanese. Just more info .

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
Cougar,
As I said, I always read your posts and in them you always joked, but that one post didn't sound like your usual self. I am glad to hear that it was. I know that some of my humerous posts were misunderstood in the past and taken as my insulting someone when I was only joking with them.

Now that X-man is long gone and probably running, I have to say that this thread has evolved into a very informative thread.
Darrel, your knowledge from your years of experience comes through your post once again. You lost me on the tec stuff but I would like to see one of the other knife makers answer that.
 
Cougar,
As I said, I always read your posts and in them you always joked, but that one post didn't sound like your usual self. I am glad to hear that it was. I know that some of my humerous posts were misunderstood in the past and taken as my insulting someone when I was only joking with them.

Now that X-man is long gone and probably running, I have to say that this thread has evolved into a very informative thread.

Darrel, Great points, odviously learned from years of experience and dealing with a variety of customers, You lost me on the tec stuff and I would like to see one of the other knife makers answer that.

James, Interesting point about the Khukuri when used for daily work provided the user with the skills or familiarity to use it for defense or war.
 
It's alright Donna, it's easy to do so. You know now for the future, that If it's me making the post it's most likely either very serious or a BS joke.

Oh and please don't confuse me with Cougar, he is a 15 year old kid that trades Ghillie suits for knives isn't he.
 
James :

As a farm tool, a khukuri gets a much rougher and readier finish than a traditional Japanese sword.
Click to expand...

So does the user khukuri carried by the Gurkhas as a weapon and tool. They usually have an additional blade with a high finish for presentations.

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top