Am I Getting Scammed through a Buyer's PayPal Claim?

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DapperDan said:
I totally disagree. I would have been offended if the buyer filed a claim with paypal first instead of contacting me and asking for a refund. I could see it if the seller was unresponsive or being combative but the buyer should have contacted the seller first and given him a chance to make it right. I think that's how most people would approach the situation. It's the mature adult thing to do.
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I second that, DapperDan. The buyer never communicated with the seller after the purchase, nor gave him the opportunity to work out a solution (i.e. returning the knife) You other guy's make valid arguments about contacting Paypal under the "Buyer Protection Policy", but at least give the guy the opportunity to correct the situation before hand.

Case in point:

1. I purchased a Brous Silent Soldier. The knife had significant side to side bladeplay. I contacted the seller, & within 15 minutes, I had an email notification stating that my entire purchase price had been refunded via Paypal. The seller also sent me a UPS shipping label to use to return the knife.

2. I sold a Benchmade 42 custom to a highly respected BF member, who wasn't completely satisfied with the knife. I listed as a user, however it wasn't to his liking. He asked me if it would be ok if he could return it. I immediately refunded him is $530 & paid the return shipping cost. There was excellent communication & absolutely no problems or feelings hurt. The key word here is: "COMMUNICATION!"

I disagree with the last 3 poster's here. A Paypal dispute, should have been option number 2. I actually waited for the buyer to come on here & post his side (giving him the benefit of the doubt), prior to adding him to my Ignore List. After I read his reply, it was a no brainer! Threatening with retaliatory negative feedback, is not someone who I ever want to do business with...PERIOD!

As for the OP: I understand completely where he is coming from. The buyer had zero feedback, & immediately files a Paypal dispute? It isn't for us to say, that this knife wasn't sold as described, or misrepresented. There is nothing wrong with doing a "catch & release!"

I spoke with the OP, & I believe him 100%, when he stated to me: the OP gave him several pieces of information that would have made any prudent seller, suspicious.

Should this new member be allowed to make mistakes? Yes, by all means- you guy's deal with his mistakes...I'll deal with the mature, professional, reputable member's here, who I trust, & enjoy doing business with!

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DapperDan said:
I totally disagree. I would have been offended if the buyer filed a claim with paypal first instead of contacting me and asking for a refund. I could see it if the seller was unresponsive or being combative but the buyer should have contacted the seller first and given him a chance to make it right. I think that's how most people would approach the situation. It's the mature adult thing to do.
EDIT:The buyer is on my ignore list and will stay there.
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PayPal claim and PayPal dispute are different. You cannot open a claim, but open a dispute. It is no different than sending email or PM seeking clarification, but is more swift and official. A dispute is escalated to a claim if things don't work out. Much better when there are trust issues involved.

I recently purchased a 940 on a different site. Seller did not ship it. I sent messages, email. A week later one response - "it shipped last week". I waited another week. No knife, no contact. I opened a PayPal dispute. Two days and seller shipped via UPS. I wasted 2 weeks, but PayPal resolved it for me in 2 days. My mistake was to trust a seller with 1 post, fortunately my PayPal was Goods.

To each his own, which is why we have a choice. Some folks may want to conserve bandwidth, words, and more importantly time. :-)
 
There is nothing unusual in commenting that the buyer could have contacted the seller directly. I would suggest that myself. PayPal is always available if necessary afterwards.

But, one mistake from a newbie and he's on Ignore? What ever happened to "Everything is a learning experience"?

That's OK, I've had people tell me to ban someone, and when I looked into the situation, found they were wrong instead.

Ready, fire! ... aim ...
 
Esav Benyamin said:
There is nothing unusual in commenting that the buyer could have contacted the seller directly. I would suggest that myself. PayPal is always available if necessary afterwards.

But, one mistake from a newbie and he's on Ignore? What ever happened to "Everything is a learning experience"?

That's OK, I've had people tell me to ban someone, and when I looked into the situation, found they were wrong instead.

Ready, fire! ... aim ...
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Esav,

I strongly disagree with you. Nobody is asking you to ban this guy. Maybe I am just a little jaded, after reading through so many other member's horror stories here in the GBU, but there is something that that is different about this guys actions, that really bother me...

You are a Moderator here, & you are subject to a certain degree of protection, that us regular member's aren't. With that said: I value my feedback, & will make all prudent decision's necessary to keep it unblemished.

In this particular case, it wasn't the buyer's initial action (filing a Paypal dispute), that I so strongly judged him on; it was the way he responded in this thread. To each his own, however I will never deal with another member who behaves this way...

I wish the buyer best of luck moving forward, dealing with the OTHER member's on this forum, hopefully in a more professional manner.

Paypal disputes, should be used after communication channels have failed...that's the way that I will continue to do business here as usual.
 
In this particular case, it wasn't the buyer's initial action (filing a Paypal dispute), that I so strongly judged him on; it was the way he responded in this thread. To each his own, however I will never deal with another member who behaves this way...
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I agree 100% this is how I also feel! Also notice how it rubbed most people the wrong way. He wasn't added to any ignore list until after he made his one and only post trying to justify what he did was the correct thing.
 
This is how folks learn.....

BFC is unique community, the learning curve can be steep sometimes. When it comes to the exchange the bottom line is that your word is your bond. Most can tolerate mistakes, errors in descriptions, forgetting to ship, it is all minutia. But lie, deceive, say one thing and do another and your chance of getting another chance is zero.

No one lied here, no deception just a bit learning...... and the lesson should be to contact the buyer first and try to resolve it before calling upon Paypal. In 99.9% of the cases resolution will be swift and satisfactory.
 
I don't know the true condition of the knife. But frame locks do tend to be sticky at first so if the knife was LNIB that could very well be the case . As far as side to side play that can usually be taken out simply by tightening the pivot . So at this point if it was me I would have tightened pivot and put a few strokes of a pencil on the lock and called it good. I think maybe the buyers lack of experience and maybe a his fear of it turning into a mud slinging event by contacting the seller. In my opinion we are all supposed to be friends here. We shouldn't try and excessively profit or try and deceive each other . Instead of seeing the good in people the buyer assumed only the bad and that's why we have another GBU thread. You should have contacted seller first and then resorted to Pay Pal. All I can say is good luck in the future around here.
 
DapperDan said:
I totally disagree. I would have been offended if the buyer filed a claim with paypal first instead of contacting me and asking for a refund. I could see it if the seller was unresponsive or being combative but the buyer should have contacted the seller first and given him a chance to make it right. I think that's how most people would approach the situation. It's the mature adult thing to do.
EDIT:The buyer is on my ignore list and will stay there.
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Mature adult thing to do? Look at the message he sent when filing the dispute:

"Buyer: I would like to return a knife for refund.It has extremely sticky and late (worn-out?) lock-up and a very sligh side-to-side movement of the blade.I would not buy it in the store as new, and would like to return in the condition as I got it.I do not mind You keeping shipping cost, that would return both of us to the initial state without loss at any side."

Is there anything immature or impolite about that message - why would anyone be offended by that? There is no hostility or anything that would rub me the wrong way. Via direct email or PP dispute process the message does not change. With over $400 in question - that is a lot of cash for anyone and quite reasonable if the new member felt more comfortable going through PP from the start.

As the seller, I would just shoot him a message letting him know he can reach out directly to the other party in the future as this is a great community and people usually work out any issues in-house. No harm no foul.

KELAMA said:
I second that, DapperDan. The buyer never communicated with the seller after the purchase, nor gave him the opportunity to work out a solution (i.e. returning the knife) You other guy's make valid arguments about contacting Paypal under the "Buyer Protection Policy", but at least give the guy the opportunity to correct the situation before hand.
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A new member going through his first return on BF went with the transparent process specifically provided for users of PP - oh the humanity! Do you know all the etiquette and dynamics of a new social setting the moment you step in the door? I know I have made mistakes before. Maybe I was just fortunate enough to be met with more understanding people who did not jump to conclusions at the first chance possible.

KELAMA said:
I disagree with the last 3 poster's here. A Paypal dispute, should have been option number 2. I actually waited for the buyer to come on here & post his side (giving him the benefit of the doubt), prior to adding him to my Ignore List. After I read his reply, it was a no brainer! Threatening with retaliatory negative feedback, is not someone who I ever want to do business with...PERIOD!
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I agree it should be option 2 - I just do not expect all noobies who start dealing on the forums to know every in-and-out of the process. And I also expect someone with $400 on the line to do what they are most comfortable with.

And can someone please point out the threats in the buyer's post for me? Metal Made Fox deserved the sarcasm. Was it the comment on negative feedback? Your skin has got to be paper thin to see that as any form of threat.

Esav Benyamin said:
There is nothing unusual in commenting that the buyer could have contacted the seller directly. I would suggest that myself. PayPal is always available if necessary afterwards.

But, one mistake from a newbie and he's on Ignore? What ever happened to "Everything is a learning experience"?

That's OK, I've had people tell me to ban someone, and when I looked into the situation, found they were wrong instead.

Ready, fire! ... aim ...
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Yup.

Marko3 said:
Instead of seeing the good in people the buyer assumed only the bad and that's why we have another GBU thread. You should have contacted seller first and then resorted to Pay Pal. All I can say is good luck in the future around here.
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I am with you Marko except for that last part. The only person here who has asserted a possibility of deception and assumed the bad is the seller - there would be no thread otherwise.

Best of luck to buyer and seller sorting out the refund/return.
 
Anyone wanna buy a Strider? It's in great condition, like new.

Kidding aside, I truly wanted to share my experience with other members to see if I was on the fast track to "screwed town."

There were other issues prior to the PP dispute that didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Multiple email addresses all in Russian. Multiple physical addresses in different states, it was just weird. So when the PP dispute arose I wasn't totally surprised. But then he went all John McEnroe on everyone and it got unprofessional to say the least.
It's a beautiful knife and I failed to note that the knife has seen so little use that the lock isn't broken in. Not at all why I sold it, please believe me, I just didn't fall in love with it like I hoped I would. - Matt
 
RecalcitrantAmerican said:
PM left re: your Strider bud. Shoot me some pics when you get it back.
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If & when it makes it back, Sean. The Strider that Matt sold, is on a very long journey all the way back from the Ukraine...swear to God!

I hope that somebody can give this neglected, unwanted Strider, a good loving home.
 
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Oh boy, what a thread ;-)

It started all wrong with a very ambitious charge “Am I Getting Scammed through a Buyer's PayPal Claim?” and then got aggressively worse from that. Some much offence.

You said I had to apologize in the first place. Well I do now for two things:

I apologize for my rather formal manner of representing my thoughts. I do write many business e-mails and partially run a group of 50 employees, so I tend to be strict to the point. You must have taken it for arrogance. Well, you should not have.

I apologize also for being a sensitive person, and after being publicly accused of scamming my frustration must have leaked through my words a little. Can’t do much about that though – that’s the way I am - emotional. And formal (Oh my gosh!)


Still, at this point, I see absolutely no wrongdoing in me opening PayPal dispute. I have a very long history with eBay and PayPal, been in many situations good and bad and find PP disputes convenient and discreet. I even bought a fishing boat through classifieds and found some vendor online to pick it up for me in WI and paid him 12K through PP. PP is not such a friendly community like BF, of course, but it’s been there for me.

Would I have contacted Braincandle now directly, knowing how you guys treat returns in this community. Maybe, but I already know his reaction, so unlikely. In the other instance – hope there will be none, but yes, I guess would.


My initial disgust to excessive offence expressed in this thread has been lived through and swallowed - you must have noted a smily on my first sentence. It appears that I can survive THAT! It is probably for good that the most jumpy guys have put me on their ignore list. It is better not to deal with biased people. DapperDan – if you are reading this – you are cheating!!! ;-)))) Can’t understand what exactly You are going to ignore though? It’s not that I’m stalking You, do I?

I will not be putting any of my offenders to the ignore list since I find it simply ridiculous.
Animosity be your choice but there is a truth: getting offensive is like swallowing poison and expecting your foes to die ;-))

!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for everybody who has put a word for me though. I know such forums (I have few hobbies along with knives) do have a tight unanimous community and it’s a bit fairly surprising that some of you backed me up when I’m simply a read-and-buy member.
!!!!!!!!!


Checked again forum rules, and I must say that there is no particular rule regarding working out returns directly. Rather there is a warning to pay with fees to have protection. That combination was misleading, frankly, making me believe that after actual sales are done we are operating under a general law. Maybe moderators should amend the rules in that respect.

Found though a strict advise not to open a thread like this one before being absolutely sure ;-)) Can You believe THAT! Ok – Braincandle was seeking advice in the first place, but what happened then? You decided you wants my blood? You wanted to publicly mock me? And I’m being called a villain? What an example of poor judgment!

I did not threaten with negative feedback - I’m seriously considering leaving one: I paid my cash for something below my expectations, i agreed to swallow his and mine shipping cost and in return I get THIS. Indeed, I am having a very bad buying experience. Yes, sure - you'll fire back, but I guess truth have to be told.


Mentioned before that I will not be replying (these messages do take time and energy), but l had to, since the longer silence I keep the sheerer sick imaginations goes. What makes so many people come with silly suggestions me breaking the knife, disassembling or whatever? Trying to apply what you would do yourself? That convinces me I made a right decision with dispute in the first place. It makes everything simple: Braincandle gets the package delivered, makes a report of what exactly he received and make it available here for the public – short, extended or filmed. I would really like to see how hard his thumb gets pushed when he tries to open frame lock with one hand. Then we decide who owes a sincere apology.

And oh yeah, Braincandle – please do not confuse me or my e-mails with Russia. I take pride that I am Ukrainian and that is a VERY big difference.

My logistics is more complicated and time consuming then for usual BFU, but I manage to keep all requirements met – you got paid from US account, you shipped to US shipping address, no third party middleman in between – everything is then handled to me personally by a relative. As you probably guessed, I can bring a boat overseas and keep all parties involved happy. Like with those guys that shared their feedback on dealing with me.

I will check back here when package reaches you.
DK
 
^^^^ Thank you that's all we wanted Silence is not the answer! Side note: I never added you to the ignore list.
 
it is still pretty emotional though - consumes a lot of energy.

all this commotion makes pp dispute such a quite little place.
i have simultaneously 650 dispute for never shipped Eklipse bought on Ebay. it takes no effort. really. just patience
 
Gormonbozia, I've read through this whole thread, and it seems like you seem not to understand why you've gotten some of the reactions you got, so let me give you an idea. Let me clear it all up for you.

First of all, I've read all your posts in this thread. You mention multiple times that you got the knife and it "didn't meet your expectations", so because it was easier and convenient for you, you decided to just instantly open a Paypal dispute. Let me clue you in why that was such a bad move, and as a result now have a lot of people here (including me) who won't EVER do business with you going forward.

Filing a Paypal dispute is something that disgruntled people do. You stated the knife didn't meet your expectations, well why didn't you email Braincandle and give him a chance to even know that you were unsatisfied?? Why did you feel the need to basically call Braincandle untrustworthy, and a possible scammer? Because that's essentially what you do when you just open a Paypal dispute on someone on the other end of the transaction without even doing them the courtesy of contacting them.

So, don't come in here and act like you can't understand why people now think you're dishonorable. I sure do, because that's a dirtbag move to just open a Paypal dispute without even having bothered talking to the seller. I don't care if you bought a boat on wherever and got it sent over to wherever else. That is irrelevant. What is relevant here are four things:

1. You for whatever reason didn't like a product.
2. You didn't contact the seller to let him know that you were unsatisfied and give him a chance to present options by which you WOULD be satisfied.
3. The only contact the seller got was when Paypal sent Brain a message to the tune of "The buyer thinks you might be a scammer, so he wants his money back. Please respond."*
4. Brian thought YOU might be a scammer as a result of your actions, and thus came in here to post up, warning others against doing business with you.

So hey, congrats on being "partially" in charge of 50 people, and of buying boats, and of using a ton of exclamation points. The only think I personally am taking from this thread is that you're bad to do business with. Bladeforums doesn't need to change its rules, YOU need to learn how to be a stand-up part of the buying and selling process, guy.

Thanks and have a nice day. :rolleyes:





*Which is essentially what those messages say. I've been on the receiving end of those before, usually by buyers trying to scam me.
 
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