An ambitious folder.

For thosa that are interested.
Pease, put yourself in list.


1 - molletta
2 - Cotherion
3 - FlaMtnBkr
4 - Josh K
5 - ArchAngel
6 - laurin
7 - tomdogma
8 - Kaizen1
9 - Haze
10 - Haze
11 - cutter 17
12 -madfordiving + one small if you decide to make
13 - unwisefool
14 - lorenzol
15 - Nadohr1
 
It is a cool looking knife....but you guys are all OK with Rick's design being ripped off??
If there is permission granted or something worked out....that would be different.
 
ibewno3 said:
Sure Looks Like a Hinderer Lock Bar Stabilizer To Me . Not Very Cool !!:thumbdn:
Click to expand...

Because it is round and on the side of the knife? His has nothing that rotates. I don't know about his patent that has never been put on a knife. It would depend on if it is a design or a utility patent. Plus I'm sure if it violates any patent he will find out during the rotoblock patent process.

Edit: just looked at the patent and visually it looks like it accomplishes the same thing but in a different way. Just because something has the same function doesn't mean it violates a patent if it does it in a different way.

For all the fanboys, he won't get his patent if it violates anything. Good thing someone doesn't have a patent on something that has a handle and a sharpened piece of metal or else we would all be carrying the same exact thing around
 
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And somebody already posted about this in the Hinderer section on USN, so let's wait until we hear from Mr. Hindererer himself, that's his business and I am sure he can take care of it himself.
 
Yeah, unfortunately I'll need to withdraw my name from the list until I see how this turns out between them and Rick Hinderer. I'm not accusing the OP of doing anything, but I just want to make sure that everything turns out well before I commit to this. I hope the OP understands.
 
Hello All, This has been brought to my attention so I will address it here. I am going to try to be quick and to the point as I am grinding blades right now and am busy! :)

Basically this is a unauthorized Hinderer Lockbar Stabilizer....whats the saying? if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck (or something like that haha)..come on people..my Lockbar stabilizer has been on thousands of knives for many years, with my knives and my AUTHORIZED users Strider knives,ZT knives and Kershaw. I'm sure most of you have seen the Hinderer Lockbar Stabilizer on these knives at some point. Can you honestly say it is not a copy??

As for the locking portion of it....as has been stated and a link has been provided..there is a patent on it...and it is a design patent FlaMtnBkr.....also sir there has been knives made with the "Camlock" ,installed on my model "Inferno"

I'm sure when this gentlemans lawyer does a patent search he will see the patent,and at the very least see the prior art which is my Hinderer Lockbar Stabilizer.


For the record The Hinderer Lockbar Stabilizer is licensed to other than myself, Strider Knives, Kershaw knives, ZT knives, and with a new AG Russel design. These are Honorable companies who came to me inquiring about using the Lockbar Stabilizer.

My hope is that alot of you people understand that makers such as myself do this for a living, this is what keeps my family fed and a roof over my head. I have to protect my ideas and what makes my products unique in the marketplace just the same as all the other makers out there making knives for a living.

Thanks for listening!

Rick Hinderer
 
Glad to hear from you Mr. H.

Your knives are the pinnacle of my dream folders.:thumbup: Some day I hope to own one.

I get the whole "rights" thing and it's very important. I hope everything works out here and the laws are adhered to.

I do wonder though, in my inexperience with these matters, as one poster alluded to if nothing was ever legally copied or the bounderies pushed we'd all be using the same tools.

A Spydie hole and a Buck oval differ only in shape, no? Is that a case of patent expiration or is the different shape enough?
I hope it gets sorted because its a sweet looking knife and as a buyer/knife fan its good to have options.

But LEGAL all the way is the only way.:thumbup:

*EDIT - even if that knife comes to production with a plain framelock...keep us posted...it's a beauty.
 
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I am attracted to this folder because of:-

1) Blade grind,
2) Replaceable locking tip,
3) One piece construction handle and admittedly
4) The Rotoblock.

I'll be fine if in the event it is a patent issue if mine has no Rotoblock, 3 out of 4 attractions are fine with me. Actually if there is an issue it can be sorted by arrangement with Mr. Hinderer I think though I'm uncertain how such things normally work.

Maybe a redesign where the clip prevents overextension? I like tip down myself.
 
Before this thread I had never seen or heard of the knife and have no idea who the maker is. I have no interest in this other than I think it's a nice looking knife and would like to have one.

I don't know what to say about it. While Rick Hinderer had a great idea and got a patent on the idea, should no one be able to come up with something that locks the lock into place? What if it locked the lock bar in a different way (that looks completely different since it looks similar but works differently), would that be wrong since it is doing the same thing as Rick's idea? Is improving and making things better not right? (and I'm not saying this is any better than the lockbar stabilizer, just asking a question)

If Sal had a patent on the pocket clip (did he?) should only Spyderco have a clip? As a knife user I'm glad that all knives have some kind of clip. Is it wrong that a knife has a metal clip screwed to the knife instead of a plastic clip molded to the handle?

This roto block thing accomplishes the same thing as the Hinderer patent on the locking lock bar (the camlock). It does do it in another way though. Since Mr. Hinderer has a design patent I'm not sure that his way of locking the frame lock so it can't unlock is violating anything since it is a different design. From my understanding a utility patent would have protected the idea and it would then probably violate it.

I can say I don't know what is right. I do know as a knife user I want to have the best features on a knife and want to have the widest assortment of designs to pick from.

I still think he won't get his patent if it is too close to what Rick has. If he gets a patent on his design then it shouldn't be a problem I guess.
 
Rhind64 said:
Hello All, This has been brought to my attention so I will address it here. I am going to try to be quick and to the point as I am grinding blades right now and am busy! :)

Basically this is a unauthorized Hinderer Lockbar Stabilizer....whats the saying? if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck

.....snip

Thanks for listening!

Rick Hinderer
Click to expand...

I would like my name off the list in light of this. I figured there was/would be some sort of permission/blessing etc. but it seems there is not.

If it goes to production with the appropriate changes or this all gets cleared up I will be interested again.
 
Hello Everybody.
My name is Gianni Pauletta and I am the owner of LionSteel Knife Company from Italy.
My company is well know from the biggest US brands. I have produced knives for CRKT, Gerber, Remington, Xikar, Spyderco, AG Russel…. But I have never copied and idea or design.

Molletta, the designer of SR-1 asked me to help him is this challenge. Build a folding knife starting from only one pieces of Titanium. We have improved the knife adding on it the RotoBlock, we are waiting the patent for it.
Rotoblock works completely different from the Camlock, the only thing that are the same is the purpose of them, locking the bar when the blade is in open position. I do not know if the Hinderer patent cover it.

In any case I do not want make fight with anyone, especially with one of the best knife maker in the world.
In spite of Rotoblock works different and it is a US Patent only, I am going to write to Mr Hinderer and ask him what Molletta asked me… to participate in this ambitious project.
 
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I think Rick misspoke. The patent of his I linked, is not a design patent, but a utility patent. (A design patent wouldn't protect his invention in any meaningful way. The utility patent does. I've seen his original stabilizer patent, but don't recall which type it was. If it's not a utility patent, he should sue his patent lawyer!:p)

It doesn't matter at all if the Roboblock does the same thing, but "differently". What matters are Rick's claims (enunciated in his patent that I linked) and whether or not the Roboblock will fulfill or "read on" to all the stipulations in at least one of Rick's claims. (It does not matter if the Roboblock does more than what is described in the patent, or if there are technical differences. All that matters is whether it at least meets the limitations described in any one of Rick's claims.) If the Roboblock does not embody all the limitations of at least one of Rick's claims, they owe him nothing.
If it does, then it is infringing.

If there is infringement, one of four things usually happens. One is, the infringer drops the project. Two, and infringer comes to an agreement with the patent holder and is granted lisense to produce the technology. Another common response, is that an infringer goes ahead and makes the 100 knives or so and presumes the patent holder either won't find out, or wish to litigate for tens of thousands of dollars over such a small number of knives. Yet another common response is the designer of the infringing item studies the troublesome patent and adjusts his design until it no longer "reads on" to at least one of the claims.
There is another very common approach being used today thanks to the 2007 Supreme Court KSR vs. Teleflex decision, but I don't think that would be applicable in this case.

If Rick does not have a patent in Italy, they are legally free to make and sell the item there and anywhere else, for that matter, other than the US.

The smart play, I think would be for the Italian firm to work with Rick on this. It will make everyone happy and probably increase sales though an official association with Hinderer.:thumbup:
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
.... should no one be able to come up with something that locks the lock into place? ... Is improving and making things better not right?
Click to expand...

What's right is that the inventor is compensated for his work. The point of the patent is simply to let the inventor benefit when someone else is using the fruit of his labor to make money, and that only for a limited time. Why spend the time and money to invent and develop something just so someone else can copy it? Why be your competitors R&D department?

FlaMtnBkr said:
... If Sal had a patent on the pocket clip (did he?) should only Spyderco have a clip? As a knife user I'm glad that all knives have some kind of clip ...
Click to expand...

I love Spyderco and have nothing but respect for Sal and his many enormous contributions to the knife world ...

But he did not "invent" the pocket clip for the folding knife.

He certainly popularized it and put it to good use, but clips have been used on pocket knives long before Spyderco.

Here's a patent from 1935 for a pocket clip mounted to the side of a knife:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Oz...s&cad=2#v=onepage&q=knife pocket clip&f=false
 
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giannip68 said:
Hello Everybody.
My name is Gianni Pauletta and I am the owner of LionSteel Knife Company from Italy.
My company is well know from the biggest US brands. I have produced knives for CRKT, Gerber, Remington, Xikar, Spyderco, AG Russel…. But I have never copied and idea or design.

Molletta, the designer of SR-1 asked me to help him is this challenge. Build a folding knife starting from only one pieces of Titanium. We have improved the knife adding on it the RotoBlock, we are waiting the patent for it.
Rotoblock works completely different from the Camlock, the only thing that are the same is the purpose of them, locking the bar when the blade is in open position. I do not know if the Hinderer patent cover it.

In any case I do not want make fight with anyone, especially with one of the best knife maker in the world.
In spite of Rotoblock works different and it is a US Patent only, I am going to write to Mr Hinderer and ask him what Molletta asked me… to participate in this ambitious project.
Click to expand...
There you go. That's what I was reserving judgement for.

Looks like your company is trying to do the right thing. Now all those who were crying wolf can go back to herding sheep.
 
Well it's good to see it looks like things are getting worked out.

Like I said I don't know how all this works exactly. I do know that I want things to be improved upon, made safer, and new features added. And not with just knives.

If things were not developed and ideas borrowed and improved we would probably all be driving around in cars that get 10 mpg with no power steering or brakes or any of the little comforts that they have today.

So while I was not sure the best way this was to be done, this thread has at least let everyone know about things that might have slowed down the knife's progress down the road. I hope I didn't tick anyone off too bad but was just asking questions that were answered by people who are much more knowledgeable than myself.

I'm still in for 2 when everything gets figured out.
 
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