An honest question.

1. Good people
2. Good knives
3. Good warranty

What sold me was #1
What keeps me here is #2
#3 is just the icing on the cake

So as long as #'s 1 & 2 remain..... #3 is just a bonus. :thumbup:
 
Boats said:
This thread is amusing. Generally, we don't poor mouth other knives here unless they have really earned the thrashing, but this quote from "blunt ruth" really tops it:



Why do I find this funny? Because I owned a Bravo-1, which is currently residing in the Netherlands. I got rid of it because it was a vastly overrated piece, far from outstanding in fact.

Cons in descending order of importance:

1) Slickly finished handle slabs more suited to a display piece than a field knife. Yes, I could have roughed it up, but maybe they shouldn't have tried to mirror polish fibermascus at the factory?

2) The sheath was a poor attempt at a good kydex sheath, especially for the money demanded.

3) Spine thickness to blade height ratio. It's all wrong in the hand. A zero degree convex edge is one of my favorites, but leading up to a .215 inch thick spine makes the knife more of a wedger than a cutter.

4) The "striker" ramp that people mistakenly called a thumb ramp. Perhaps a neat idea in principle but it messes up the knife ergonomics something fierce for some common holds.

5) Price: There is not a lot of value inherent to the Bravo-1 when one considers that A2 is a relatively inexpensive air hardening tool steel which is laser or water jet blanked and ground to final shape. The cheap sheath has already been mentioned.

Long story short, there are a whole lot of better picks in terms of value at the typical $185-240 price slot of the BRKT Bravo-1. Heck, there are better value/more impressive steel true customs available in this price bracket too.

I think that most ESEE customers would still be buyers without the totally kick ass warranty because they know bang for the buck performance when they see it--and more importantly--spend their own money for it.

Since ESEE does have a kick ass warranty, all the better.
Click to expand...

Thats pure opinion. Everyone can have there own.

Heres a pic that says the knife can cut. Very well in fact. I can make very fine shavings with it.

Picture026.jpg


Its not about the tool, as much as it is skills.
 
j williams said:
Thats pure opinion. Everyone can have there own.

Heres a pic that says the knife can cut. Very well in fact. I can make very fine shavings with it.

Picture026.jpg


Its not about the tool, as much as it is skills.
Click to expand...

Baloney.

Some knives make one's skills easier to employ than others. The Bravo-1 is indeed capable of some fine shavings due to the zero degree edge. Its wedge like convex blade shape makes it baton above its weight too. That said, there are run of the mill puukkos out there for less than $50.00 that kick its ass as a general bushcraft knife for exercising "skills" on wood.

I didn't say that the Bravo-1 is an incompetently designed or built knife, but it is more hat than cattle for the money. Speaking of which, where did that infamous ramp go on yours? Ground off or re-designed off?
 
Boats said:
Baloney.

Some knives make one's skills easier to employ than others. The Bravo-1 is indeed capable of some fine shavings due to the zero degree edge. Its wedge like convex blade shape makes it baton above its weight too. That said, there are run of the mill puukkos out there for less than $50.00 that kick its ass as a general bushcraft knife for exercising "skills" on wood.

I didn't say that the Bravo-1 is an incompetently designed or built knife, but it is more hat than cattle for the money. Speaking of which, where did that infamous ramp go on yours? Ground off or re-designed off?
Click to expand...

I ground it off. Used it for a long time with it, and wanted something new. :thumbup: Actually just did it the day before that pic was taken. BRKT had to put it on as a design requirement for the knife. You can get em without it.

Yeah, and Ive seen people with those same Puukkos that couldnt do crap with em. Ive seen people outcarve those Scandi totin bushcraft guys with a monster 500.00 Busse. As I said, skills. It doesnt matter what tool you have (as long as the heat treat is good) if you have a strong skill set, and are comfortable with it. You did say it was more of a wedge then a cutter. I was just showing that it is more then capable, and the thickness to edge isnt as bad as you stated.

Oh, and BRKT offers a matte finish to there Micartas and G10s, that isnt shinny, and is more grippy. Lots of options.. Id venture to say alot of the price differance in BRKTs is due to more finish work on the satin blades, and handle glueing and fitting, and sanding.

The sheaths. Handmade Kydex from Sharpshooter. While I believe the kydex should be a thicker grade, It does hold my knife quite well, and I like it better then injection molded stuff.
 
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If ESEE produced convex edges as stock I'd buy them but until that time I'll stick with BRKT.

...then again I have been eyeing off that RC-6 for a while now... I wonder if it'll out perform the Fallkniven A1?
 
I think the warranty makes ESEE knives extremely high value. Getting a lot for my money is one of my goals in buying products. I could buy 6 Moras for the price of an ESEE, but it's the balance of the features offered, durability and warranty that keeps me buying ESEE knives.
 
Nuke_Spook said:
???????Not quite following your point unless it is that some live up to their word /warranty and some do not. If a company has a warranty and does not live up to it then people find that out and take that into account when deciding to purchase a product just like they do when deciding to purchase a product from a company that does live up to its warranty.

Words are the medium by which we communicate. In this case the communication is that the ESEE will stand behind its product. (a warranty) By all reports I have ever heard ESEE lives up to its word / product warranty.
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see where I wasn't very clear in what I was saying. I hope this clears it up and gives you a better understanding of my opinion on warranties.


I was was more or less thinking back to a situation that happened to me a few years ago when I bought a foaming machine from a company. I paid around $25,000 for the pump alone. I sprayed about 20,000 pounds of foam in a couple months and the thing started to shut down with an error code. Turns out the circuit board went bad. They sent another one out and we put it in on my dime. Everything was fine again.

Then after a few more months it happened again. This time we knew how to troubleshoot it because we had the whole manual faxed to us on troubleshooting and kept it. This happened three times. Keep in mind, each time the men are sitting around waiting to work or working on a machine that is not even a year old.

After the 3rd time they said they wouldn't replace it anymore. I said why? They said I was out of warranty. I said your circiut board keeps failing and you need to fix that problem. They said they would but I would have to pay for it now.

Well, as it turns out, the circiut board was flawed from day one. I found out I was one of the very first buyers of this new machine and there were a lot of problems that everyone was having. They said they would sell me a new board for cost, $1200, since my warranty was up for a few months already.

They wouldn't send me another one so I had to buy it or scrap the machine. I said my down time alone with this "NEW" machine has cost me several times what that board is, so just send it and we will call it even. No dice. I said this thing has been flawed from day one and you know it so how can you say the warranty is up when the problem started before the warranty ended?

I think they were trying to cut their losses and looking for any reason to not pay for a forth new board. Plus I have a VERY hard time believing that board was almost $1200 their cost.

So I bought the board and will never do business with them again, and I am buying 8 more machines in the next couple months, but not from them.


Which brings me back to my point. A warranty can say anything you want it to, but in the end it's only as good as the people behind it. I mean if ESEE decided to not honor their warranty, are you going to take them to court and spend $250 an hour for a lawyer for a $150 knife?

Yes, some people would be pissed and not buy from them again, but remember, EVERYDAY someone turns 18 and has no clue about what happened with you and that company and they will buy from them. Everyday a company gets a whole new batch of 18 year old newbies that they prey on and make money off of, and they have to learn their lessons like we did. It's just life.

Granted, the internet has made it MUCH harder for companies to operate like this, but it still happens.

Plus, 95% of the people who buy the product will have it just sitting on a shelf and never used and have zero complaints about it. Also, those companies will not be on a forum promoting their product either and be so open and availible to their customers for negative complaints.

Do you think Toyota will go out of business because of a bad gas pedal, or BP stop selling gas and oil to people because of the gulf and everyone it has hurt? No, as you read this someone is buying a Toyota right now and will be filling it up with BP gasoline.

People continue to shop at WalMart even though it sends money to China and costs them their jobs in the long run, and a constant flow of products into this country that are being recalled because of lead paint in a baby crib or poision in the dog food, or what ever, but items keep flying off the shelves at WalMart at an ever increasing rate.

Warranties are only as good as the men behind them. It's basically a way of putting your word and honor on a piece of paper so you don't have to keep saying it. If you have no honor or don't honor your word, it's just a piece of paper with writing on it and nothing more.
 
j williams said:
ESEE has a better price point, but I dont believe in chastizing anyone for what they spend on a blade or anything else for that matter. To me, its like Glock vs. Sig.... Both great. Just differant animals.
Click to expand...

And is why I own Glock, but no SIGS. :D

Again, I'm not knocking BRK. I do disagree with you on the Bravo needing the convex. I think it would be a bastard cutter without the convex grind. But to each his own. I've tried convex and I've tried flat, and I've tried saber and concave. I use flat. To each his own. :thumbup:
 
j williams said:
Thats pure opinion. Everyone can have there own.

Heres a pic that says the knife can cut. Very well in fact. I can make very fine shavings with it.

Picture026.jpg


Its not about the tool, as much as it is skills.
Click to expand...

Notice it's mod'd. Nice work, too.

I'll still stick with my ESEE's, after trying both brands. I think I've honestly got more BRK's. But I use ESEE more.
 
PayetteRucker said:
I'd say the ESEE knives I own ARE exceptional knives-granted the RC3 needs serious handle work......
Click to expand...
PayetteRucker, what are the handle issues you are referring to on the RC3???

I am just curious as to your opinion of what it needs. :)

Thanks in advance.... :thumbup:
 
Not to presume to speak for PR, but the first thing the RC-3's handle needs is more of it.:D
 
MrPan said:
Yes, I can see where I wasn't very clear in what I was saying. I hope this clears it up and gives you a better understanding of my opinion on warranties.


I was was more or less thinking back to a situation that happened to me a few years ago when I bought a foaming machine from a company. I paid around $25,000 for the pump alone. I sprayed about 20,000 pounds of foam in a couple months and the thing started to shut down with an error code. Turns out the circuit board went bad. They sent another one out and we put it in on my dime. Everything was fine again.

Then after a few more months it happened again. This time we knew how to troubleshoot it because we had the whole manual faxed to us on troubleshooting and kept it. This happened three times. Keep in mind, each time the men are sitting around waiting to work or working on a machine that is not even a year old.

After the 3rd time they said they wouldn't replace it anymore. I said why? They said I was out of warranty. I said your circiut board keeps failing and you need to fix that problem. They said they would but I would have to pay for it now.

Well, as it turns out, the circiut board was flawed from day one. I found out I was one of the very first buyers of this new machine and there were a lot of problems that everyone was having. They said they would sell me a new board for cost, $1200, since my warranty was up for a few months already.

They wouldn't send me another one so I had to buy it or scrap the machine. I said my down time alone with this "NEW" machine has cost me several times what that board is, so just send it and we will call it even. No dice. I said this thing has been flawed from day one and you know it so how can you say the warranty is up when the problem started before the warranty ended?

I think they were trying to cut their losses and looking for any reason to not pay for a forth new board. Plus I have a VERY hard time believing that board was almost $1200 their cost.

So I bought the board and will never do business with them again, and I am buying 8 more machines in the next couple months, but not from them.


Which brings me back to my point. A warranty can say anything you want it to, but in the end it's only as good as the people behind it. I mean if ESEE decided to not honor their warranty, are you going to take them to court and spend $250 an hour for a lawyer for a $150 knife?

Yes, some people would be pissed and not buy from them again, but remember, EVERYDAY someone turns 18 and has no clue about what happened with you and that company and they will buy from them. Everyday a company gets a whole new batch of 18 year old newbies that they prey on and make money off of, and they have to learn their lessons like we did. It's just life.

Granted, the internet has made it MUCH harder for companies to operate like this, but it still happens.

Plus, 95% of the people who buy the product will have it just sitting on a shelf and never used and have zero complaints about it. Also, those companies will not be on a forum promoting their product either and be so open and availible to their customers for negative complaints.

Do you think Toyota will go out of business because of a bad gas pedal, or BP stop selling gas and oil to people because of the gulf and everyone it has hurt? No, as you read this someone is buying a Toyota right now and will be filling it up with BP gasoline.

People continue to shop at WalMart even though it sends money to China and costs them their jobs in the long run, and a constant flow of products into this country that are being recalled because of lead paint in a baby crib or poision in the dog food, or what ever, but items keep flying off the shelves at WalMart at an ever increasing rate.

Warranties are only as good as the men behind them. It's basically a way of putting your word and honor on a piece of paper so you don't have to keep saying it. If you have no honor or don't honor your word, it's just a piece of paper with writing on it and nothing more.
Click to expand...

Point clarified and concurred with.
 
teacher said:
1. Good people
2. Good knives
3. Good warranty

What sold me was #1
What keeps me here is #2
#3 is just the icing on the cake

So as long as #'s 1 & 2 remain..... #3 is just a bonus. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Perfectly well written!

I couldn't agree more.

I get calls and emails often from potential customers and I honestly hardly mention the warranty, I don't have to. After explaining the ESEE knife and how great they are and the amazing people at ESEE the customer wants it even before I get to the warranty part of it.

As it has been written many times here already, it's just icing on the cake.
 
j williams said:
As I said, skills. It doesnt matter what tool you have (as long as the heat treat is good) if you have a strong skill set, and are comfortable with it.
Click to expand...

I am going to have to throw in the caveat that some tools lend themselves better to certain tasks than others. A strong skill set may be able to use any tool, but a lesser skill set can be still be succesful with the better suited tool. I.E. most people will be more successful carving a spoon with a 4" bladed Mora than a 9" bladed Busse. If your one of those who can make fuzz sticks with a Broad Sword, more power to you. Unfortunately, I am not, so I'll look for the tool best suited to me and the tasks I am trying to accomplish. (Hopefully I reach the level of making fuzz sticks with a broad sword someday). :D
 
I think a lot of people are still in the mindset of "what's the best knife" and while that's probably fun to do, it all boils down to personal preference and the user holding the blade. True, it's hard to carve monkeys from peach seeds using an axe. Probably can't be done but when comparing apples to apples, I haven't seen a lot I can't do with a machete and a pocket folder. We build variations of knives because people want variations of knives.
 
rockspyder said:
And is why I own Glock, but no SIGS. :D

Again, I'm not knocking BRK. I do disagree with you on the Bravo needing the convex. I think it would be a bastard cutter without the convex grind. But to each his own. I've tried convex and I've tried flat, and I've tried saber and concave. I use flat. To each his own. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Glocks are great. My goto is a 19. :thumbup:

Exactly. Preferance. Once you aquire what blade you like, regardless of grind, or steel choice, you develop your skill set through use. Then its easy to get another knife of a differant size or grind from any maker or manufacturer and dismiss it as ineffective because its differant.

Nuke_Spook said:
I am going to have to throw in the caveat that some tools lend themselves better to certain tasks than others. A strong skill set may be able to use any tool, but a lesser skill set can be still be succesful with the better suited tool. I.E. most people will be more successful carving a spoon with a 4" bladed Mora than a 9" bladed Busse. If your one of those who can make fuzz sticks with a Broad Sword, more power to you. Unfortunately, I am not, so I'll look for the tool best suited to me and the tasks I am trying to accomplish. (Hopefully I reach the level of making fuzz sticks with a broad sword someday). :D
Click to expand...

great post. :thumbup:

I didnt mean its all skill and no tool, but IMO skill plays a more important role then tool. Of course theres "the right tool for the job" IE an Axe for chopping is vastly more effective then a Mora. I would never argue that point. Thats just stupid. :D However, when were talkin comparable tools, IE 4in fixed blades etc, it comes down to preferance, and a strong skillset. No knife is gonna make you good at fuzz sticks. Thats earned through time in the dirt. Just like if you have a whole library of survival manuals and no training. Survivors are built through dirt time. Ive owned knives in every style from most every maker and manufacturer out there. This stuff isnt new to me. I can accomplish the same thing with an ESEE4, as I can with a Finnish Puuko, or my Bravo1. It just comes down to preferance, and what trips your trigger. Hand sizes vary. Lots of factors come into play when choosing your prefered tool. However without a strong skills, everythings gonna feel like it doesnt work. Thats why I cant tell people what is the best knife for.... I know what works for me, and im not gonna thrash any knife or maker cause it didnt work for me.

R.A.T. said:
I think a lot of people are still in the mindset of "what's the best knife" and while that's probably fun to do, it all boils down to personal preference and the user holding the blade. True, it's hard to carve monkeys from peach seeds using an axe. Probably can't be done but when comparing apples to apples, I haven't seen a lot I can't do with a machete and a pocket folder. We build variations of knives because people want variations of knives.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: Well said Jeff.

You build survivors. Youve been doin it many years. Im curious on what your thoughts are about skillset vs. tool? Also, if you had to choose one skill that trumps all in a survival situation, besides mental ability to keep a cool head, what would that be? Signaling? Nav? Blade ability?
 
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