Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[RX-79G]

I live in Seattle. Many of my neighbors are Chinese citizens, working in the tech industry in the US. They are not ultra-rich factory owners or rice farmers. They are part of China's fast growing middle class.

China is not a communist (little c) country anymore. They might be a Communist country, in that they are an oligarchy with many controls on how certain aspects of their economy are run, as well as paying lip service to Mao. But the citizens are now free to engage in largely free economy - which is why there is so much consumer buying going on. All that ivory, jade and old Chinese pottery as well as iPhones are being bought by the rich and middle class.

I'm sure there was also a largely pointless building craze, just like the one in Dubai. Another non-democratic country that is hugely capitalist.

http://blog.peerform.com/the-five-most-capitalistic-countries-in-the-world/

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-class/

There just seems to be some confusion about the difference between a form of government and form of economy. If you go to a central Party meeting, it may seem like North Korea. Go to the homes and offices, and it seems like South Korea.

As I said, I have no doubt that ivory demand will continue and poaching because of it. But if making ivory sale illicit in the West makes any impact in China, that will have a great effect on protecting the remaining herds.


You guys can always point to some stupidity that a small group is up to and say "Look, whaling is still happening." No kidding. But whaling, worldwide, has decreased so much that most populations are recovering. That's what's needed with ivory.


And expert inspections of mammoth isn't really the point. If your average consumer loves the "beauty of ivory" and can't tell one from the other without inspecting the end grain, then all ivory increases in demand.


For the fake scripture quoting types: Noah's ark was not full of people.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Huh, so in a way the anti ivory people would benefit from the sale of mammoth ivory, no?

The more mammoth ivory supplied the lower the cost and demand for elephant ivory is. Hell, mammoth ivory seems way cooler to me anyway. It seems to me with the right communication and collaboration there could be a common ground.

 

[RedLynx]

Thank you for the clarifications.

It's worth noting, however, that your Chinese neighbors are not part of China's growing middle class. They'd need to be living in China to be able to be a part of that demographic. Perhaps they are sending money home, and/or have plans to return home themselves once an initial investment is made. But they are not, at this time, part of China's middle class, if they are your neighbors in Seattle.

However I confess I'm confused by your comment regarding whaling. I realize it is still poaching, and still happening in some places, but I'm not sure what its relevance is here. As you suggest, it has decreased worldwide, largely due to concerted efforts by many major countries, and not just here in the U.S., whose lead you think many other countries follow closely.

I agree that various countries take some cues from us, although I probably don't agree on the extent to which those cues are taken.

Thanks also for the links, informative.

 

[Mark Knapp]

We need to be careful not to insult the "comprehension" of those in this discussion. It does nothing to further it.

I am less than an expert. I can't tell the difference between Ivory, bone or white wood (is there such a thing?). But I have no need to. I prefer certain types of handles on my knives, none of which is any type of bone or wood. Just doesn't make sense to me, but to each their own. I don't know the solution to the problem. IE: Stopping Elephants being slaughtered while also making sure Humans who participate the right way in Ivory craft not being persecuted. What I do know is that we need a more level headed approach.




What I also know is that I don't want Elephants to die so folks can have ivory handled knives, and that is what I fear the involvement of Knife Rights with this issue will portray other knife rights efforts as....


Further, I also know that I want Knife Rights to fight for the bladed end of my tool and not the handle.

Doug Ritter was brought into this fight because we asked him in, he was the one best suited to help us on this issue. He posts here because we asked him to keep us up to date on the bans. He told me when we joined in this fight together that he did not know about ivory and as he got further involved he learned more about it than he ever thought he wanted to know.

There are other sub-forums in Blade forums (The knife collector sub-forum and the knife making sub-forum that view the ivory issue as a very important thing to talk about on Blade forums, even though to some here, it is not.

I also do not want any animal (not just elephants) to die just so that someone has something to put on a knife handle. You can rest assured that knife makers in the U.S. are not buying ivory from elephants poached in Africa today, it is too expensive. It's selling for $1500.00 to $2,000.00 a pound in China. The going price for raw elephant ivory in the U.S. is $100.00 a pound. A smuggler would be a fool to bring raw ivory here. There are some that say smugglers are still bringing it here but that is not what the studies suggest.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I believe it is still being found in what are (to a layman with no practical knowledge on mammoth ivory) seemingly large quantities in places such as Alaska. How much of that is used by some of the local makers as most of or even the entirety of their product line, I don't know.

I am familiar with this subject, we can talk about it if you like. What would you like to know?

 

[Mark Knapp]

I live in Seattle. Many of my neighbors are Chinese citizens, working in the tech industry in the US. They are not ultra-rich factory owners or rice farmers. They are part of China's fast growing middle class.

China is not a communist (little c) country anymore. They might be a Communist country, in that they are an oligarchy with many controls on how certain aspects of their economy are run, as well as paying lip service to Mao. But the citizens are now free to engage in largely free economy - which is why there is so much consumer buying going on. All that ivory, jade and old Chinese pottery as well as iPhones are being bought by the rich and middle class.

I'm sure there was also a largely pointless building craze, just like the one in Dubai. Another non-democratic country that is hugely capitalist.

http://blog.peerform.com/the-five-most-capitalistic-countries-in-the-world/

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-class/

There just seems to be some confusion about the difference between a form of government and form of economy. If you go to a central Party meeting, it may seem like North Korea. Go to the homes and offices, and it seems like South Korea.

As I said, I have no doubt that ivory demand will continue and poaching because of it. But if making ivory sale illicit in the West makes any impact in China, that will have a great effect on protecting the remaining herds.


You guys can always point to some stupidity that a small group is up to and say "Look, whaling is still happening." No kidding. But whaling, worldwide, has decreased so much that most populations are recovering. That's what's needed with ivory.


And expert inspections of mammoth isn't really the point. If your average consumer loves the "beauty of ivory" and can't tell one from the other without inspecting the end grain, then all ivory increases in demand.


For the fake scripture quoting types: Noah's ark was not full of people.

Did you look at my web site? There's lots of mammoth ivory on there, both on knives and in slabs ready for knife making, none of it looks anything like elephant ivory. It's a very rare piece that looks anything like elephant ivory. The average Joe would know the difference at a glance.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Thank you for the clarifications.

It's worth noting, however, that your Chinese neighbors are not part of China's growing middle class. They'd need to be living in China to be able to be a part of that demographic. Perhaps they are sending money home, and/or have plans to return home themselves once an initial investment is made. But they are not, at this time, part of China's middle class, if they are your neighbors in Seattle.

However I confess I'm confused by your comment regarding whaling. I realize it is still poaching, and still happening in some places, but I'm not sure what its relevance is here. As you suggest, it has decreased worldwide, largely due to concerted efforts by many major countries, and not just here in the U.S., whose lead you think many other countries follow closely.

I agree that various countries take some cues from us, although I probably don't agree on the extent to which those cues are taken.

Thanks also for the links, informative.

The relevance to whaling is that we didn't change Japan's lust for inexpensive whale meat just because we The USA" and every other western countries besides Norway did stop whaling. I have no idea how active Norway is currently?.

The Asiatic or Indian elephant have much smaller tusks and aren't hunted or poached since many are semi-domesticated and used to work.
So, How do we get the chinese to stop buying MODERN AFRICAN IVORY? Since I and most others can't speck a word of Mandarin, We back the Chinese people like Yao Ming. He and others work with this group.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...na-campaign/2014/09/03/87ebbe2a-d3e1-4283-964
He and others work with group.

http://www.wildaid.org/about
I am involved as in, sending in a few bucks and trying to get some kind of a local benefit so I can donate a knife for an auction.

Yao Ming and others are the way I see to change purchasing habits in China. I think there is a better cause & effect than making old Piano's & Guitars illegal to trade in here in the USA. I personally like Ivory on Elephants period. That's Modern African Ivory.
I see no problem with Ancient Ivory and have written my rep. to say so telling him the difference.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Huh, so in a way the anti ivory people would benefit from the sale of mammoth ivory, no?

The more mammoth ivory supplied the lower the cost and demand for elephant ivory is. Hell, mammoth ivory seems way cooler to me anyway. It seems to me with the right communication and collaboration there could be a common ground.

I have been trying to communicate with all people concerned with the poaching problem, for quite some time, to see how we can work together to and try to solve the problem. The problem is, these groups do not work together. My idea was to raise money to give to game guards in Africa, the people actually on the ground in Africa protecting elephants from poachers. Some friends and I raised $4,200.00 and sent it to a group dedicated to that purpose. I would like to do more but people that do not like the use of ivory will not work with people that do.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Wow.. Seeing all this makes me really sad at my contribution to Knife Rights (and considering a DR Grip) . .. Rather than actually working for.. You know... *knife rights*, they waste time and money on ivory (the trade of which, "legal" or not has always been sickening) . It is sad to see effort expended on this crap, when the right to own certain blades of any type is in jeopardy.

Hopefully another group will come along and worry less about decoration, and focus on being able to own them at all...

 

[Mark Knapp]

The relevance to whaling is that we didn't change Japan's lust for inexpensive whale meat just because we The USA" and every other western countries besides Norway did stop whaling. I have no idea how active Norway is currently?.

The Asiatic or Indian elephant have much smaller tusks and aren't hunted or poached since many are semi-domesticated and used to work.
So, How do we get the chinese to stop buying MODERN AFRICAN IVORY? Since I and most others can't speck a word of Mandarin, We back the Chinese people like Yao Ming. He and others work with this group.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...na-campaign/2014/09/03/87ebbe2a-d3e1-4283-964
He and others work with group.

http://www.wildaid.org/about
I am involved as in, sending in a few bucks and trying to get some kind of a local benefit so I can donate a knife for an auction.

Yao Ming and others are the way I see to change purchasing habits in China. I think there is a better cause & effect than making old Piano's & Guitars illegal to trade in here in the USA. I personally like Ivory on Elephants period. That's Modern African Ivory.
I see no problem with Ancient Ivory and have written my rep. to say so telling him the difference.

Thanks Laurence, I like the work of Yao Ming, I think it is the best approach. I however, as you know, see nothing wrong with the use of pre-act, legal elephant ivory in the U.S. I have more confidence in our border and wildlife officials than some. I believe they have been doing a good job and if they need help, hire more of them. I hear our unemplyment rate has still not fully recovered.

 

[wjswiger]

OK, that's just damn funny!! Figure on a group of progressives to do just such a thing.....

I'm sure that somewhere at a California University, students are protesting the wholesale slaughter of the Wooly Mammoth.

 

[Twindog]

The relevance to whaling is that we didn't change Japan's lust for inexpensive whale meat just because we The USA" and every other western countries besides Norway did stop whaling. I have no idea how active Norway is currently?.

Actually, pressure from American's and other progressive people around the world had a huge effect on reducing whaling and saving many species from extinction. Japanese whaling exists only because of government subsidies.

And pressure from Americans and other progressive people around the world had a huge effect on reducing damage to the ozone layer, which is necessary for land life to survive.

People are so numerous and have so much powerful technology these days that without decent regulations on behavior, the earth will become a barren rock. The cod fishery used to be one of the greatest food resources on the planet. Not anymore. Unless people are forced to stop dysfunctional behavior, they will destroy everything.


I'd agree that woolly mammoth ivory isn't a problem by itself. The problem is that our enforcement of elephant-ivory bans is so poorly funded that agents can't tell the difference between all these kinds of ivory. And, as Fish & Wildlife officials have said over and over, the legal trade in pre-ban ivory is what gives the illegal trafficking in elephant ivory that chance to thrive.

On my river in the Pacific Northwest, steelhead populations are down to and escapement of less than 50 fish a year. When steelhead fishing was banned, there was still a lot of poachers fishing steelhead; they just said they were fishing for cutthroat. People lie. People poach. One year, I caught more than 100 poachers on my river (all going after fewer than 50 steelhead). We had to stop all fishing so that enforcement of the steelhead ban had a chance to succeed.

 

[stabman]

I'd agree that woolly mammoth ivory isn't a problem by itself. The problem is that our enforcement of elephant-ivory bans is so poorly funded that agents can't tell the difference between all these kinds of ivory.

Then their ignorance is the problem, not mammoth ivory.
Make them take a course...it doesn't take long to learn the difference.

 

[Twindog]

Then their ignorance is the problem, not mammoth ivory.
Make them take a course...it doesn't take long to learn the difference.

It can be done, but it's not easy and takes considerable analysis, and even then mistakes can be made. And some samples are not in a condition for easy analysis, short of destructive DNA testing. Here's a link to what's involved. Imagine agents walking into a shop with thousands of ivory trinkets. Where is the money going to come from to do all this testing? And how do you tell pre-ban ivory from post-ban ivory?

http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

Non-elephant ivory is included in these bans because there is no practical way to enforce selective bans.

 

[craytab]

I live in Seattle. Many of my neighbors are Chinese citizens, working in the tech industry in the US. They are not ultra-rich factory owners or rice farmers. They are part of China's fast growing middle class....

...There just seems to be some confusion about the difference between a form of government and form of economy.

Your neighbors in Seattle are not Chinese middle class. They would need to live and work in China for that. I agree that the definition of what China is can be complicated, but Geo Political Economics is not something that we are going to solve here.

As I said, I have no doubt that ivory demand will continue and poaching because of it. But if making ivory sale illicit in the West makes any impact in China, that will have a great effect on protecting the remaining herds.

There are a lot of ifs in this statement. I do agree to some extent but to project ideological cultural change of 1.5 billion people is a far stretch. What if it does the opposite? Makes it more desired. "Those westerners can't get this but we can!". Like I said, a lot of ifs.

You guys can always point to some stupidity that a small group is up to and say "Look, whaling is still happening." No kidding. But whaling, worldwide, has decreased so much that most populations are recovering. That's what's needed with ivory.

Stupidity should be left out of this conversation if it is to be productive.

And expert inspections of mammoth isn't really the point. If your average consumer loves the "beauty of ivory" and can't tell one from the other without inspecting the end grain, then all ivory increases in demand.

I see your point. I can't tell the difference. This is a real problem with this issue.

For the fake scripture quoting types: Noah's ark was not full of people.

Again, scripture should be taken out of this. If it is brought up only respond in that it is inappropriate to this conversation.

Did you look at my web site? There's lots of mammoth ivory on there, both on knives and in slabs ready for knife making, none of it looks anything like elephant ivory. It's a very rare piece that looks anything like elephant ivory. The average Joe would know the difference at a glance.

I do not. Please respect this part of the problem. It is I think a real issue in this discussion unlike any political, economic, or religious issues which we will never agree on.

Doug Ritter was brought into this fight because we asked him in, he was the one best suited to help us on this issue. He posts here because we asked him to keep us up to date on the bans. He told me when we joined in this fight together that he did not know about ivory and as he got further involved he learned more about it than he ever thought he wanted to know.

There are other sub-forums in Blade forums (The knife collector sub-forum and the knife making sub-forum that view the ivory issue as a very important thing to talk about on Blade forums, even though to some here, it is not.

I also do not want any animal (not just elephants) to die just so that someone has something to put on a knife handle. You can rest assured that knife makers in the U.S. are not buying ivory from elephants poached in Africa today, it is too expensive. It's selling for $1500.00 to $2,000.00 a pound in China. The going price for raw elephant ivory in the U.S. is $100.00 a pound. A smuggler would be a fool to bring raw ivory here. There are some that say smugglers are still bringing it here but that is not what the studies suggest.

I think we all agree that we don't want any animals to become extinct for a knife handle. This is a good place to start. Like I said, I have no stake in this other than wanting Elephants to live and people to continue their hobby or business in a sustainable way. From what it sounds like, these laws won't really change the animals getting hurt part but humans will be impacted, yet there is still a chance of raw Ivory coming in to this country. So basically what I want is not possible, given current circumstances. I know you said poachers would have to be foolish to import raw Ivory from Africa but I think we would be naive to think it does not happen. Even if it does happen, it seems not to be the real problem. The source is the problem. I have little hope to change the laws in Africa. So what am I to do? I don't even like Ivory on knives. I don't like wood, whale, kangaroo, Elephant or Mammoth! So what am I to do!

Clearly this whole Ivory ban thing is a much bigger issue than knives. It doesn't really have anything to do with why I carry and use a knife every day. When I gave my daughter her first knife, I never considered warning her about the danger of Ivory handled knives or that they might be illegal one day or that they might have contributed to the extinction of Elephants in Africa. I don't consider Ivory a viable option for a handle! To each their own. What I do care about is being able to carry and use a knife. Seems to me the handle material is of little consequence in the right to carry a knife. The business end is what is being legislated against for most knives. Ivory is much bigger than just knives. I would like my knife rights organization to fight for my right to carry an edged tool. I don't cut things with Piano keys, other musical interments, gun grips, or random trinkets.

Wow.. Seeing all this makes me really sad at my contribution to Knife Rights (and considering a DR Grip) . .. Rather than actually working for.. You know... *knife rights*, they waste time and money on ivory (the trade of which, "legal" or not has always been sickening) . It is sad to see effort expended on this crap, when the right to own certain blades of any type is in jeopardy.

Hopefully another group will come along and worry less about decoration, and focus on being able to own them at all...

While I agree that this issue, to me, should not be tackled by knife rights, I am still going to support the organization. I don't agree with this aspect of what Doug is doing but overall the good is far out weighed by the bad.

 

[stabman]

From the site you linked:

Another feature may be used to identify mammoth ivory. Mammoth ivory will occasionally display intrusive brownish or blue-green colored blemishes caused by an iron phosphate called vivianite. Elephant ivory will not display intrusive vivianite discoloration in its natural state. It is of interest to note that when the discoloration is barely perceptible to the eye, the use of a hand-held ultraviolet light source causes the blemished area to stand out with a dramatic purple velvet-like appearance. Even if discolored, elephant ivory will not have the characteristic fluorescence of vivianite.

Seems like they could do an okay job of distinguishing most mammoth ivory.
Not all, but most.

From the time I was tiny child I wanted mammoth ivory, and as an adult I'm sticking with it.

 

[ncrockclimb]

Wow.. Seeing all this makes me really sad at my contribution to Knife Rights (and considering a DR Grip) . .. Rather than actually working for.. You know... *knife rights*, they waste time and money on ivory (the trade of which, "legal" or not has always been sickening) . It is sad to see effort expended on this crap, when the right to own certain blades of any type is in jeopardy.

Hopefully another group will come along and worry less about decoration, and focus on being able to own them at all...

I feel the same way.

 

[craytab]

Then their ignorance is the problem, not mammoth ivory.
Make them take a course...it doesn't take long to learn the difference.

It can be done, but it's not easy and takes considerable analysis, and even then mistakes can be made. And some samples are not in a condition for easy analysis, short of destructive DNA testing. Here's a link to what's involved. Imagine agents walking into a shop with thousands of ivory trinkets. Where is the money going to come from to do all this testing? And how do you tell pre-ban ivory from post-ban ivory?

http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

Non-elephant ivory is included in these bans because there is no practical way to enforce selective bans.

Both interesting and relevant posts. Much better than just arguing.

I think telling the difference between Elephant killing Ivory and non-Elephant killing ivory might be the crux of the issue.

 

[22-rimfire]

I also do not want to see the African Elephants become extinct. My suggestion to this ban thing is enforcement..... ban all elephant ivory from being imported. It becomes an enforcement issue. If you sneak the ivory into the country; it's legal to sell or use. Simple. Get caught sneaking it into the country, and there will be big penalties.

Border enforcement. Might even help with the illegal alien issue.

 

[beaconterraone]

The same type of individuals leading this tyrannical movement is the same as that which oppose the right to keep & bear blades & firearms. "If even one child could be saved..." "If even one elephant can be saved..."

I have no problem whatsoever on an import ban and/or a massive tariff causing an effective import ban. That is completely constitutional, as a delegated power to the Congress. Enforce it!

I have a huge problem with the denial of the right to already-owned private property without just cause or compensation, the ownership (and right to trade) which are secured by the Ninth Amendment.

There is a large amount of privately-owned ivory-adorned jewelry owned by Americans, and a lesser but still notable amount of ivory-adorned heirloom knives. As such due to the latter, this is a knife rights issue.

These bans on the private, internal sale of animal products within the United States do absolutely nothing to save elephants. Nothing. They are self-righteous feel-good measures intended to make promoters & supporters "feel good" about themselves, and nothing more. Far from being "noble," such self-serving efforts are pathetic.

If you support a ban on ivory already owned by Americans, then you support tyranny. It's as simple as that. And understand measures like these are a double-edged sword that come back at your own neck eventually.