Yup. Every time it is brought up. Has little to do with knives or knife laws.
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Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update
- Thread starter Critter
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Hi Everyone, I had to take a break from this to get some work done to pay bills.
I have a couple of questions to ask, I think they are valid to this discussion.
First, If it is true that raw ivory is selling for $1,500.00 a pound (a number quoted in an LA Times article) in China why would any smuggler would bring it to the U.S. The going rate in the U.S.(dealers price) is closer to $100.00 a pound, I bought the two pounds of pre-act Asian elephant ivory that I own for that and know of several auctions where it sold for less than that.
These ivory bans are going to have some far reaching effects on millions of honest Americans, people that deal in antiques, musical instruments, custom pool cues, duck and turkey calls, the list goes on and on. They are good, hard working people like you and me that have followed the rules and done the right thing. Is it right to punish these people, take away billions of dollars worth of personal wealth for no real good reason other than to send a message to other countries.
The report I sited shows that the U.S. has done a very good job, the best in 98 countries studied, by far, in stopping the flow of ivory at our borders and prosecuting those that break the law. So why should Americans be punished.
People will say that the ETIS studies only show what illicit ivory has been caught at the border, not the ivory that makes it through the border without detection, but since we since we are reporting more seizures by far than any other country it stands to reason that we are doing a good job of stopping it at the border. Our seizures though numbering more, were of very small quantities like people bringing home ivory jewelry, not shipments of raw ivory.
Below is part of a summery of an ETIS study concluded in 2007. I have a link to the whole study but since that time the internet address has changed, when I find the whole study again, I will post a link.
Executive summery
The survey found 24,004 ivory items in the 657 outlets in the 16 towns and cities visited in the USA, most of which probably were legally for sale.
also from page five,
The USA has a minimum of 120 full - and part-time ivory craftsmen. This is down from an estimate of 1,400 crafts men in 1989.
The country consumes an estimated less than one tonne of raw ivory annually, down from seven tonnes a year in the late 1980s. Craftsmen each use an average of 8kg of ivory a year and say that the USA has an adequate supply.
Craftsmen use mostly old, legal, raw ivory to manufacture new knife, gun and walking stick handles, scrimshaw pieces, cue stick parts and jewellery. They often use broken or damaged ivory items for restoration work.
The USA has a good record of enforcing CITES regulations in respect of international wildlife trade and has reported the largest number of seizures of illegal ivory in the world, according to the Elephant Trade Information System.
This study determined that the US ivory market has a small detrimental effect on elephant populations ,more from importing illegal worked ivory for retail sale than from local ivory manufacturing. Some contraband gets past Customs and there are no effective internal ivory transport and retail market controls.
This is all from a report written in 2007 on only 16 cities and towns. It stands to reason if they had visited more cities and towns there numbers of businesses and craftsmen would have been in the thousands. In the US, my research is showing me that since this report we have done even better. in the years from 2009 to 2013 the illegal import of elephant products to the US was a quantity below statistical significance. I will try to site the actual stats in the next couple of days. I have already sited the report that gave these figures.
I have a couple of questions to ask, I think they are valid to this discussion.
First, If it is true that raw ivory is selling for $1,500.00 a pound (a number quoted in an LA Times article) in China why would any smuggler would bring it to the U.S. The going rate in the U.S.(dealers price) is closer to $100.00 a pound, I bought the two pounds of pre-act Asian elephant ivory that I own for that and know of several auctions where it sold for less than that.
These ivory bans are going to have some far reaching effects on millions of honest Americans, people that deal in antiques, musical instruments, custom pool cues, duck and turkey calls, the list goes on and on. They are good, hard working people like you and me that have followed the rules and done the right thing. Is it right to punish these people, take away billions of dollars worth of personal wealth for no real good reason other than to send a message to other countries.
The report I sited shows that the U.S. has done a very good job, the best in 98 countries studied, by far, in stopping the flow of ivory at our borders and prosecuting those that break the law. So why should Americans be punished.
People will say that the ETIS studies only show what illicit ivory has been caught at the border, not the ivory that makes it through the border without detection, but since we since we are reporting more seizures by far than any other country it stands to reason that we are doing a good job of stopping it at the border. Our seizures though numbering more, were of very small quantities like people bringing home ivory jewelry, not shipments of raw ivory.
Below is part of a summery of an ETIS study concluded in 2007. I have a link to the whole study but since that time the internet address has changed, when I find the whole study again, I will post a link.
Executive summery
The survey found 24,004 ivory items in the 657 outlets in the 16 towns and cities visited in the USA, most of which probably were legally for sale.
also from page five,
The USA has a minimum of 120 full - and part-time ivory craftsmen. This is down from an estimate of 1,400 crafts men in 1989.
The country consumes an estimated less than one tonne of raw ivory annually, down from seven tonnes a year in the late 1980s. Craftsmen each use an average of 8kg of ivory a year and say that the USA has an adequate supply.
Craftsmen use mostly old, legal, raw ivory to manufacture new knife, gun and walking stick handles, scrimshaw pieces, cue stick parts and jewellery. They often use broken or damaged ivory items for restoration work.
The USA has a good record of enforcing CITES regulations in respect of international wildlife trade and has reported the largest number of seizures of illegal ivory in the world, according to the Elephant Trade Information System.
This study determined that the US ivory market has a small detrimental effect on elephant populations ,more from importing illegal worked ivory for retail sale than from local ivory manufacturing. Some contraband gets past Customs and there are no effective internal ivory transport and retail market controls.
This is all from a report written in 2007 on only 16 cities and towns. It stands to reason if they had visited more cities and towns there numbers of businesses and craftsmen would have been in the thousands. In the US, my research is showing me that since this report we have done even better. in the years from 2009 to 2013 the illegal import of elephant products to the US was a quantity below statistical significance. I will try to site the actual stats in the next couple of days. I have already sited the report that gave these figures.
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This has quite a bit to do with knife rights and knife law. Go to a knife show some time, (not in one of the states that have now instituted ivory bans) Atlanta for instance, a very large percentage of the tables will have knives with ivory handles on them. It may not be important to you, but it is important to lots of us.
New knife laws are being introduced every year restricting a particular style of knife, an action or length. One day soon, it might be your favorite knife being attacked, don't worry, Doug will be there to fight for you too.
I stand by my statement that this thread and the others preceding it have little if anything to do with knives, especially knife laws. Just read the threads in their entirety. It's quite apparent they are agenda driven, and knives certainly don't seem to be the true agenda. Are either the word "knife" or "knives" even used in your post two above this one? Or even in most of your posts on this subject? This is about protecting the trade and dealing in ivory, not knives or knife laws.
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There was a time not long ago when the U.S. F&W service got it's direction from biological study and sound science. I am afraid this is no longer true, now they get their direction from politicians.
This is a quote from the USF&W web site before the President's strategy on wildlife trafficking came out.
"Since the vast majority of seizures in the
United States were small quantities, we
do not believe that there is a significant
illegal ivory trade into this country."
"Most of the ivory seized at U.S. borders is of jewelry being brought back by unknowing tourists to other countries."
These quotes were a reflection of what was, and still is, in the ETIS reports
The director of the US Fish and Wildlife service Dan Ashe was appointed by President Obama. The whole agenda of the USF&W service concerning elephant ivory started to change shortly after Ashes appointment.
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I do own ivory and I sell ivory, I said this "I use ivory on some of the knives that I make and I make a small part of my living selling ancient ivory (ancient walrus and mammoth) to other knife makers"
You asked me if I know that none of my ivory was poached, I said I know for a fact that none of my ivory was from poached elephants and you said this;
"That makes all the ivory that's passed through your hands of "legally" killed elephants blood free and righteous, right? Kumbaya"
The problem as I see it, is that you are lumping all ivory together. I wrote "ancient walrus and mammoth ivory" and you read "elephant"
That's when I answered "I have never dealt in elephant ivory", so yes, we are misunderstanding each other.
If it is your opinion that buying ancient walrus and mammoth ivory from native people and selling it to knife makers is contributing to the problem of poaching in Africa, then you and I have a long way to go. I would argue, and a lot of people smarter than I agree, that providing an alternative to elephant ivory diminishes the demand for it. If the world demand for ivory could be filled with alternative sources there would be no need to expose ones self to the risks involved in poaching.
Can you site a study that shows that changing laws in the US will influence behavior of people in China, or a study that supports any of the opinions you expressed. One of the ETIS studies I read said that when laws restricting the sale of ivory in the US were passed it had no effect on the population of elephants in Africa.
I cannot see where China has embraced any of the things that we hold dear, not the least of which is democracy, I don't see why you would think they would follow our lead in anything. Can you give me an example where we have influenced them, a glaring example to me where they have not would be in human rights.
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marks ivory comes from ancient walrus, not elephant. the problem is, for all intensive purposes, ivory is ivory. yes there is a difference between walrus and elephant, heck there is a difference between asian and african elephant ivory. as long as one form of ivory is still legal and sought after, there will be a market for the highest quality ivory. this is why the trade of ALL ivory needs to be banned. history proves a complete ban in the us and canada 'eh' with strict enforcement and severe penalties would make a huge difference on the global market. my last words in this debate, peace
No, I am afraid I disagree. I would argue, and lots of economist agree that the law of supply and demand suggests otherwise. If there were enough alternative ivory sources it would diminish the demand for illicit ivory. Sources like ancient walrus, mammoth, and mastodon, wort hog, hippo, pre-act elephant and ivory from surplus elephant (yes there are some) and stockpiles of ivory from elephants that died of natural causes are all part of a supply that could help reduce the demand. Instead people try to make alternative sources accessible, this only increases the demand. Supply and demand is a principle that dictates the value of every commodity on earth, ivory is no different.
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Red thank you, I appreciate that you have considered the things that I had to say.
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Woolly mammoths were driven to extinction by climate change.
Esav Benyamin
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As the owner and administrator of Bladeforums, Spark made a decision to authorize Doug Ritter to post in the General Knife Discussion.
End of discussion.
And? I never said he couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't post. I simply said the threads have little to do with knives or knife laws, and I stand by that.
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What I do when I see threads that don't interest me is, I move on. Don't waist your time here.
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I have not seen a report of anyone convicted of using elephant ivory and claiming it is mammoth ivory. Mammoth ivory in it's colored state is very easy to discern from elephant. Even white, interior mammoth ivory is easy to tell from elephant by measuring what is called the Schreger lines. http://asianartmall.com/schreger-lines.htm
It seems to me it should be demonstrated that the problem exists before laws and regulations that will effect millions of people are enacted.
It has been claimed that thousands of pounds of ivory are smuggled through U.S. borders every year (A claim that the research I sited discredits pretty conclusively) It is the ivory that is not reported to ETIS that is the problem (that's the claim). The problem is, we don't even know if this ivory exists. I suggest that it doesn't exist, or that it exists in such small amounts as to be insignificant, as the science suggests. Some people advocate the introduction of laws that will adversely effect millions of people and make billions of dollars worth of thier personal belongings valueless, for a problem that the science has concluded does not exist.
It seems to me it should be demonstrated that the problem exists before laws and regulations that will effect millions of people are enacted.
It has been claimed that thousands of pounds of ivory are smuggled through U.S. borders every year (A claim that the research I sited discredits pretty conclusively) It is the ivory that is not reported to ETIS that is the problem (that's the claim). The problem is, we don't even know if this ivory exists. I suggest that it doesn't exist, or that it exists in such small amounts as to be insignificant, as the science suggests. Some people advocate the introduction of laws that will adversely effect millions of people and make billions of dollars worth of thier personal belongings valueless, for a problem that the science has concluded does not exist.
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In this post you sound like you are trained in the human behavioral sciences, can you share with us the nature of the training you have. Thanks
Mark,
I never asked you about "poached" anything. I asked whether you have or had any "ivory that has contributed to the reduction in elephant populations in the last century". You then inserted the word "poached" and talked about walruses. Are Asian elephants walruses or mammoths? Have you never owned any modern African ivory?
Please try to answer the question without misquoting me.
And are you really still insisting that there are no Western influences in China, the country that went from the largest Communist population on earth to the largest capitalist country in a little over a decade? What sort of study would you like to see? Number of Hollywood films translated? Did you know that China is the US's third largest export market? Did you know that English is the most studied foreign language?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2012/02/17/china-is-americas-biggest-opportunity/
China's population is growing increasingly Westernized. That isn't just a love of our crappy fast food and fashion, the cultural shift is rampant and ongoing. What's going on now is analogous to what happened to Japanese culture after WWII. Language, goods and media consumption don't happen in a vacuum - the ideology and morality go along with it.
Let's demonstrate that morality.
As for mammoths, if Joe Blow can't tell mammoth from elephant in a finished product - what's the difference? It just becomes "ivory" at that point, with all the same market influences as the rest of the ivory.
And walruses have already been hunted to near extinction several times in the past. Is that really a road to go down?
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I have been sitting and watching this thread for a while and many of the other ones like it in the past. I have no stake in Ivory other than I hate to think about Elephants become extinct because of its trade. I think we can all agree on that. Seems like there is just a lot of arguing going on about how to solve the problem.
Frankly, an ivory ban does not impact me in the least. I don't own any. I don't plan to ever own any. I find it a very inefficient substance to actually use in knife making. Then again, I buy and collect and appreciate knives to use, in the wet or mud or freezing temperatures. I'll take G10, Micarta of the various types, Kraton, GRN/FRN or any other synthetic material over Ivory simply because of the real world usefulness.
I understand all of the arguments being made here but unfortunately various folks are very set in their opinions to the point that nothing is going to be hashed out. I understand the theory of why Doug and Knife Rights is taking up this cause, slippery slope and all. Unfortunately I am of the opinion of leghog in that this has little to do with protecting my rights as a knife owner. This is a controversial and very political issue. Something I frankly don't want my right to carry and use a knife tied to. Doug is doing very important work in other venues on the knife rights front. I just worry that this aspect of knife rights will hurt the overall goal by being implicated in a very complicated and almost unsolvable problem. No one is going to come out of this fight without egg on their face.
I live in a state with a major American city that has a preemption law outlawing the carry of any knife, even though with my CCW I can carry my Glock just fine. This is a real problem that actually hurts hundreds of thousands of law abiding Americans every single day. This is what I want knife rights to be working on!
I really do appreciate the efforts of Doug. I am very thankful to Spark for providing this great website. I can appreciate the various arguments being made here by the various posters. I just thought I would try to respectfully add my 2 cents and I hope if this conversation is to continue we can do it in a civil manner.
Frankly, an ivory ban does not impact me in the least. I don't own any. I don't plan to ever own any. I find it a very inefficient substance to actually use in knife making. Then again, I buy and collect and appreciate knives to use, in the wet or mud or freezing temperatures. I'll take G10, Micarta of the various types, Kraton, GRN/FRN or any other synthetic material over Ivory simply because of the real world usefulness.
I understand all of the arguments being made here but unfortunately various folks are very set in their opinions to the point that nothing is going to be hashed out. I understand the theory of why Doug and Knife Rights is taking up this cause, slippery slope and all. Unfortunately I am of the opinion of leghog in that this has little to do with protecting my rights as a knife owner. This is a controversial and very political issue. Something I frankly don't want my right to carry and use a knife tied to. Doug is doing very important work in other venues on the knife rights front. I just worry that this aspect of knife rights will hurt the overall goal by being implicated in a very complicated and almost unsolvable problem. No one is going to come out of this fight without egg on their face.
I live in a state with a major American city that has a preemption law outlawing the carry of any knife, even though with my CCW I can carry my Glock just fine. This is a real problem that actually hurts hundreds of thousands of law abiding Americans every single day. This is what I want knife rights to be working on!
I really do appreciate the efforts of Doug. I am very thankful to Spark for providing this great website. I can appreciate the various arguments being made here by the various posters. I just thought I would try to respectfully add my 2 cents and I hope if this conversation is to continue we can do it in a civil manner.
fishface5
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"If China sees that the West thinks ivory is barbarous, it will become barbarous in China."
hmm, wearing fur in the US has not been PC for decades now, so who are the largest markets for fur? Oh yeah Russia and China.
The US has banned trade in new ivory for decades. And where is the largest market for ivory? China
Japan is actually a good example to consider - the US, and the entire rest of the world except Norway, has considered whaling morally reprehensible for decades, but who keeps doing it vigorously and unapologetically? Japan
Culture is not so malleable as the self-righteous like to presume when it fits their agenda (whether in this instance, or "Iraqis will greet us as liberators," etc)
I like mammoth ivory on knives and really object to the govt prohibiting behavior "on principle" when it will have no effect on the actual problem, which is protecting live wild elephants. There are better ways to do that. However I do appreciate craytab's point that - despite this issue being important to many knife owners and makers - it may not be a critical "knife" issue and may in fact distract from effective lobbying on more critical knife issues.
hmm, wearing fur in the US has not been PC for decades now, so who are the largest markets for fur? Oh yeah Russia and China.
The US has banned trade in new ivory for decades. And where is the largest market for ivory? China
Japan is actually a good example to consider - the US, and the entire rest of the world except Norway, has considered whaling morally reprehensible for decades, but who keeps doing it vigorously and unapologetically? Japan
Culture is not so malleable as the self-righteous like to presume when it fits their agenda (whether in this instance, or "Iraqis will greet us as liberators," etc)
I like mammoth ivory on knives and really object to the govt prohibiting behavior "on principle" when it will have no effect on the actual problem, which is protecting live wild elephants. There are better ways to do that. However I do appreciate craytab's point that - despite this issue being important to many knife owners and makers - it may not be a critical "knife" issue and may in fact distract from effective lobbying on more critical knife issues.
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Sounds like the work of vegans, I like ivory as it has something about it that bone doesn't.
Such a waste of material just to destroy it, extinct or not.
I don't think it should have been piled up and burned like that, as I don't believe in wasting any resource, and I think a better move would have been piling a few poachers instead, but I doubt vegans really have anything to do with this. I am an avid fan of meat and I would prefer the poaching to stop and elephants to be saved.
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Reason, logic, and common sense! I was holding back because I just called for some calm. You said it better than I could have (read nicer). If joking is to continue to happen in this thread it should be to lighten the mood, not thicken it, and divide us further.