Antique Pocketknives 101

Charlie,

It's always GREAT to see some examples side by side! Really brings out similarities and differences. After seeing them like that, I'd almost be inclined to say that's original jigging, but then I noticed how differently the handle pins are placed on the questionable example versus all the others. Both pins are placed closer to the center of the knife, and this is something that wouldn't happen in production as the holes are drilled according to a pattern jig. What does some chicken eyeing reveal about possible previous pin hole locations on those liners?

Eric
 
I am NOT a Schrade (or any other) Knife expert.

I would feel ripped off if I payed $80 for that, but that's just me.

I think the scales look goofy running at angles like they do.

The main blade profile looks a little wrong.

The main problem is old knives tend to look old and when one looks too good I'd have to worry.

All that said, without reading all I have from people who know WAY more than I do I'd probably never know anything was wrong. Except I'd never have gotten it to start with because the scales look goofy!
 
thawk said:
I have a Schrade Walden 236 with delrin scales, and it looks almost exactly like this knife. However, mine is a knife I suspect has been cleaned, and buffed. On mine, the width of the master blade matches up better with the spring, but still has a crocus polished mark side, which I thought has been polished shiny after the fact and likely came out of the factory glazed. I always figured this was one of the last ones Schrade produced, around 1965.

I did not did not take these shots for comparative purposes, just happened to have them.

Looking at the profiles of the blades, they are almost the same in most aspects, although some of the observers here have a keener eye than me. My pen blades rides down into the liners a little deeper, maybe because of the kick on the tang. I would like to match up lengths on the pen blade. Mine is right at 2" from the base of the tang, measuring along the spine.

236_f-2.jpg


TroubleJack14.jpg


s236_b-1.jpg


One thing that jumps out to me on Charlies knife is the shield. I thought with peachseed scales, it should have had a Federal shield, not like the one on my version. Schrade and consistency though do not always go together.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Open_stock/pages/236.htm

I don't have an opinion. If it it has some fakery Charlie, it would have slipped past me.
Click to expand...

I put a picture of my knife next to Hal's here, to illustrate the rivet situation.
 
It looks like my subject knife is made with later "Walden" tooling. I think they moved the rivet location.
Eric's suggestion that I look inside for a change in rivet location turned up unexpected results!! There are two holes in the center liner, in the same location where the handle pins are. This is another indicator that this is a parts knife, IMO!! I'm trying to get a pic of it.
 
PBJS, goofy scales is a good reason not to buy the knife. I'm not sure you can tell from the auction pics, though.
As I stated in the beginning, this knife was intriguing, because the pics for the auction were not as good as the "brutal" closeups my old scanner performs!
 
Last edited:
GOT IT!!! Thanks to an exceptional bottle of British Columbia Pinot Noir!!
schrade236linerholefull.jpg

schrade236linerhole.jpg

You will see a nice big hole lining up with the handle pins. Pathetic!
 
Charlie, I've got the pin holes, from the pivot end of the knife, at 5/8" and 3" respectively on the Cut. Co. knife and the liner template. Of course if the tooling were changed under Walden, that point would be moot, but I suspect that the DE knife was also made during the Walden era.

Eric
 
Do you have the pin holes in the CENTER liner? Where there shouldn't be any?
 
I think we're going to need Hal back here for that one as I don't have the jack version of that knife. It would certainly seem highly unlikely though. Does the DE have holes in the center?

Eric
 
No, the D-E doesn't have the holes. No self respecting cutlery is going to have extraneous holes in parts, at least not where you can see them.
The whittlers don't have center liners, so there's nothing to see in them.
 
I totally agree, just figured some corroboration with another knife would help to dissuade the naysayers. Well there's some glaring proof for ya!:mad: Now what would have been so wrong with advertising the knife as a rebuild? Unless the seller was a second owner and didn't have a clue? Or of course there's scenario number two where he knew damned well what he had.

Eric
 
-

If the factory had a bunch of liners which were identical except for the holes used for attaching the handles why wouldn't a worker just use any liner that came to hand for the outside liners and the center liner? It would probably be easier than trying to keep them straight. The angle of the jigging is something that makes the knife more authentic looking to my eye, Schrade knives often have their jigging at an angle in my experience (limited). I have a 236 very similar to this one (unfortunately in delrin) and it's blade also falls short in the cap, just like this one, It appears to be short, but I believe that mine is actually mint.

The things that do bother me (a little) are: The mismatch between the master blade thickness and its backspring. Even there I think it is a little exaggerated, if you look closely at the liner at that point it seems to have a little gap, if that gap were closed it would push the blade over and close the gap with the spring. The other thing is the seemingly poorly cut swedge on the master, it does look a little weak. I don't know how the swedges were cut, if they were cut by hand, someone could have been having a bad day.

JMO

-
 
Last edited:
ea42 said:
Charlie,

It's always GREAT to see some examples side by side! Really brings out similarities and differences. After seeing them like that, I'd almost be inclined to say that's original jigging, but then I noticed how differently the handle pins are placed on the questionable example versus all the others. Both pins are placed closer to the center of the knife, and this is something that wouldn't happen in production as the holes are drilled according to a pattern jig. What does some chicken eyeing reveal about possible previous pin hole locations on those liners?

Eric
Click to expand...

Eric, Go back and look at Charlie's first comparison photo in post #76. The knife on the far right has the same pin spacing as the subject knife. I could easily see the hole spacing being changed at some point in time, perhaps because the outboard locations were resulting in too many pin cracks during production.

As far as the holes in the center liner, I don't know. It may not have been the usual practice, but the same die for the handles could have been used for the center liner. Both parts are the same except for the gauge of the material, and a substitution may have been made due to a damaged die or a lack of center liners and a tight production schedule.

I can say I have a knife or two around here that have an extra hole in the handle liners. The same liners were apparently used for more than one pattern, one of which used an extra cover pin.

I like to keep in mind what Mike L. said once. These old cutlerys were factories, in business to get product out the door, and not to make collector items, all matching one another in the finest of details.

At this point I question most the mis-match of the master to the spring, and wonder where the jigging came from, but msteele6 has a good point about the match. The swedge could have been obliterated by 'cleaning.' The rust on the tang of the master blade in the interior shot leads me away from thinking this is a cobbled knife.

Fran
 
Msteele et. al. the mismatch is exaggerated, but still there. I am able to pinch the knife a little, so one side lines up, and the blade is still narrower than the spring, though not as much.
I've looked at this knife so much I am cross-eyed, but I am convinced it was not sanded flush when it was together, which would level out the parts. Each piece, liner, scale, blade, spring, is slightly out of "flush". I haven't been able to capture that in a scan, but I will try it at different angles. Also, if you look at some pics of the master blade, you can see that the spine is not parallel with the long pull. I think sanding was done on the black of the blade, along with excessive buffing, which has changed the geometry of the cut swedge, ruining its lines.
I've been offered a refund including postage!! :eek:Would you take it??:confused:
I've been through so much with this stupid knife, I'm beginning to feel attached!:p
 
Thats good to hear that the seller offered to make good on the knife.

I could see where you would be attached to it by now. You have spent a lot of time researching this knife.

Just a thought , what if the seller agreed to let you keep it at a much reduced price ? Its still a nice looking knife and would make a good user even with its "faults" ...
 
ea42 said:
I think we're going to need Hal back here for that one as I don't have the jack version of that knife. It would certainly seem highly unlikely though. Does the DE have holes in the center?

Eric
Click to expand...

No pin holes in my center liner BTW. I did not realize it, but it appears the 236 Jack and the 837 Whittler are exactly the same 3 9/16" frame. I like the shape of that handle.

Keep the knife Charlie. I'd be disappointed if you sent it back. Shoot, at least let Dale take the clip in question off and put a wharncliffe on it. :D
 
Last edited:
338375 said:
Thats good to hear that the seller offered to make good on the knife.

I could see where you would be attached to it by now. You have spent a lot of time researching this knife.

Just a thought , what if the seller agreed to let you keep it at a much reduced price ? Its still a nice looking knife and would make a good user even with its "faults" ...
Click to expand...

He wouldn't agree to a discount - I asked; all or nothing.:rolleyes:

I think I will keep it. All questions have not been answered, so it has to stick around for a while!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top