Are bayonets supposed to be sharp?

[NeilB]

Yes, the rifle bayonet is a descendant of the pike. Essentially, the pike protected the musketeers from the saber- and pistol-armed horse-mounted cavalry (you'd think someone would have done it with archers, but I can't recall any examples). Lots of history here. It is hard to keep infantrymen of centuries ago from running away from a horse cav charge. Quite an impressive sight, I think--the charge of horse cav, I mean. Without pikes to keep the cavalry from running down the infantry and killing them without any risk to the riders, infantry couldn't hold. With pikes--and then plug bayonets, then ring bayonets of varies forms--infantry could hold against cavalry in open terrain. Prior to the tactical innovation of mixing pikes with guns, horse cav dominated open terrain. With pikes mixed in, infantry could hold (though often didn't due to lack of training or lack of discipline). An important tactical innovation.

However, the bayonets we see today are not designed to stop horse cavalry. They are more related to WWI where close-range infantry charges (somewhat like Picket's Charge at Gettysburg) and rifles with small magazine capacities (typically five to eight rounds) were common. The bayonet was useful in that situation because of the very short distances--a couple of feet--and the lack of ammunition. In my personal opinion as an infantryman, it's always better to shoot the other guy than to try to stab him.

Because of the (diluted) influence of our WWI experiences, the bayonet is maintained in the arsenal for a couple of reasons. Crowd control. A rifle with a bayonet can push people back, often without lethally wounding anyone. The second reason is more difficult to explain except as an aspect of discipline. A steady line of infantry with fixed bayonets can create a moral advantage in the appropriate situation.

I suspect the major reason for issuing a bayonet that can actually be used as a knife (the one for my M16 was way too soft) is because of weight and utility. Everyone is going to carry a knife anyway. Some of us carried multiple knives (I carried three) plus a bayonet. I can reduce that by one if my bayonet can be used as a knife, making my load that much less heavy.

 

[willseeyalater]

Wounds made by unsharpened edges would have hurt more, bleed more from tissue tearing apart and would be more prone to infection. The goal in old school infantry warfare was to reduce the number of enemy combatants by wounds, mortal or otherwise. Putting someone into a state of shock from pain and blood loss would take them out of action short term and if they made it off the battlefield they would need more medical attention, further using up personnel and resources in the strategy of numbers that war becomes.

 

[Moosez45]

Wounds made by unsharpened edges would have hurt more, bleed more from tissue tearing apart and would be more prone to infection. The goal in old school infantry warfare was to reduce the number of enemy combatants by wounds, mortal or otherwise. Putting someone into a state of shock from pain and blood loss would take them out of action short term and if they made it off the battlefield they would need more medical attention, further using up personnel and resources in the strategy of numbers that war becomes.

I've read that triangular bayonets were the worst for after battle infections. Something about hard to close and really pulverized the immediate tissue closest to impact.

I was working in a Civil War museum once where I saw bayonets that had been heated and bent 180 degrees backwards. They belonged to the Mortuary Units, for dragging bodies around.

Moose

 

[gadunz]

Stab, twist, withdraw, uppercut with rifle stock. Repeat as ness.
SMLE bayonet, 17"- too long for a knife too short for a sword.
Agree with horizontal mount, not only for human ribs but also to reduce wind buff for aimed shots. Horizontal mount would see more double edged dagger bayonets.

 

[D R E]

Wounds made by unsharpened edges would have hurt more, bleed more from tissue tearing apart and would be more prone to infection.

Getting stabbed by a dull or sharp bayonet isn't going to be pleasant either way. Blood loss results from severed arteries not because the bayonet is unsharpened. A razor sharp blade will punture the skin easier than a dull one and will also sever tissue to a greater degree. Its like getting shot with an arrow. Which arrowhead is going to cause more damage, a field point or a razor sharp broadhead? But yes, either way can cause death quickly through loss of blood.

Its interesting that there is an almost universal fear of getting knifed over being shot. Thats why its tougher to stab another human than it is for them to shoot someone. Yuk, what a subject to discuss. :barf:

 

[not2sharp]

There were very few bayonet wounds treated during WWI. Which should be read as those who were bayoneted did not survive to make it to the aid station. When you are fighting at that range (a few feet) you are not going to turn your back on an opponent until he is good and dead; so it doesn't really matter how clean/or nasty the wounds may be. It reminds me of the foxhole scene at the end of Platoon, where the NVA overrun Bunny and Junior's position and bayonets Junior over and over again....

n2s

 

[Moosez45]

This has been an interesting and informative thread. To be honest, what I've read about bayonets is very little. Most I've glommed onto in my military reading.

There are two types of bayonet fighters......the quick and the dead.

Good thread.

Moose

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

There were very few bayonet wounds treated during WWI. Which should be read as those who were bayoneted did not survive to make it to the aid station. When you are fighting at that range (a few feet) you are not going to turn your back on an opponent until he is good and dead; so it doesn't really matter how clean/or nasty the wounds may be. It reminds me of the foxhole scene at the end of Platoon, where the NVA overrun Bunny and Junior's position and bayonets Junior over and over again....

n2s

From what I've read, during the Civil War, something like less than 1% of all injuries AND casualties recorded in the lists was due to swords or bayonets, and most of them were either self-inflicted or the result of camp quarrels.

In terms of "sticking" I think it's MUCH more likely for a bayonet to get stuck due to the injured individual falling forward onto the blade after entry, causing a binding action much like sticking a butter knife between the tines of a fork and then twisting the fork. Edges can nick bone, but when processing meat rabbits, for instance, I've never gotten a scalpel-sharp knife actually stuck in bone--only stopped by a partial cut into it. It has a "sticky" feeling but the edge immediately withdraws. Living bone is actually very springy and elastic--especially the ribs.

 

[dfarm]

The fal bayonet is horizontal. And that's interesting to me that there was a smle bayonet that was a long blade. I've only seen spike bayonets for those.

 

[orca8589]

I've had a few bayonets over the years, and most were dull. Some would hold great edges if I took the time to sharpen them, but it was a pain in the @$$. The best one I had for edge-holding, believe it or not, was an old Soviet AK bayo. They're chisel-ground, and I put kind of a Scandi-edge on it. Kept the edge pretty well, too. (It was great for shaving feathers onto firewood to start fires with in our fireplace, until our son got too curious and it had to be put away.) The other was an old Spanish CETME bayo from the 1950's, made in Toledo. The forward edge of the blade would take and hold a nice edge, but the middle of the blade is ground back to give it a bolo-type profile. Don't even bother trying to sharpen that.

I went to school with a kid who's grandfather went to Georgia every year with family, and hunted wild boar. He used an old long-bladed U.S. Bayonet that he'd been given in the war. He'd been a machinist during WWII, and he'd re-ground and re-pointed it. Apparently it worked very well for it's intended purpose. That's the only time I've ever heard of anyone using a surplus bayonet for anything.

~Chris

 

[Sig_Op]

No, they are NOT supposed to be sharpened. I had about 5 taken away from me in the service. No one would tell me why. Then i bumped into a real life story as to why. (SP5-US ARMY) He said that he also sharpened his, bad idea, when he used it, it actually cut into the ribs of the man he used it on & he could not get it out & he himself almost got killed because of it. He left his rifle & went for his .45 & barely was able to save himself. Lesson learned: ribs flex, sharp blades cut into bone, sharp bayonets are bad, .45's are good & the Grace of God is AWESOME !!! His words, not mine.


In retrospect, they are designed wrong. Ribs of humans run horizontal. Modern bayonets should also have blades horizontal to the gun, not vertical as they all are. That way, when used, much less chance of a sharp edge cutting into bone & getting stuck. JMHO. YMMV.

Army guy myself, his report is accurate to my knowledge, bayonets are also designed to break for that reason, I believe it's the Geneva convention that says you cannot shoot someone "attached" to your bayonet lol. That being said if your fixing bayonets not, something has gone wrong.

 

[DRodent]

Originally bayonets were not sharp because that would tear the flesh making it more difficult to suture & heal.

Sharp edged cuts heal faster.

Newer bayonets often double as knives and other tools so they are sometimes sharpened.

Running out of ammo and fighting hand to hand is not as prevalent as it was hundreds of years ago either.

 

[gadunz]

And that's interesting to me that there was a smle bayonet that was a long blade. I've only seen spike bayonets for those.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...s-them-and-what-do-you-collect?highlight=smle

 

[BePrepared]

that's kinda like asking if all cakes are supposed to be chocolate.... some are, some aren't.

 

[gadunz]

The fal bayonet is horizontal.

Some are

Since 1962 the Belgium company FN-Herstal supplied the Netherlands Armed Forces with their FAL "Fusil Automatique Leger". This weapon became very favorable among Dutch soldiers because of it's reliability, 'stopping-power' and accuracy. Although it was a very new type of rifle it came with a old concept type of (socket) bayonet. http://www.muetstege.com/model_c_fal.htm

 

[dfarm]

Thanks for the schooling! When I see "smle" my mind forgets that there was more than just the #4mk1 lol. Will those blade bayonets fit on a #4?

The blade type for the fal is something I've never seen before either. What countries used those?

 

[gadunz]

yes? Dutch

 

[D R E]

Originally bayonets were not sharp because that would tear the flesh making it more difficult to suture & heal part.

Sharp edged cuts heal faster.

Newer bayonets often double as knives and other tools so they are sometimes sharpened.

Running out of ammo and fighting hand to hand is not as prevalent as it was hundreds of years ago either.

I have to respectfully disagree on the tear flesh, difficult to heal. If you where run through with a piece of steel sharpened or dull, your chances of surviving the battle much less the war would be very small. Do some research on puncture wounds and really the point becomes moot. People show up quite often in the ER with a foreign object sticking out of their skull of chest. IF that object had sliced an artery they would probably be in the morgue and not the ER.

When in the history of warfare would a "clean" incising puncture simply close up and heal verses that more tearing puncture that would take longer? Punctures where pretty much always fatal back in the day. An infected wound is an infected woung regardless of the process.

If a dull edge did more damage to the human body than a sharp edge, why are "fighting knives" sharp? If that was true, the Gerber Mark II would look more like a screwdriver. It would seem to me that all the stories repeated in BT by well-meaning drill sergeants regarding bayonets is just myth. In their defense, would you want a bunch of teenage guys running around with a razor sharp bayonet, not me.

 

[Colog]

Well this has turned into a larger discussion than I anticipated. Lots of good info. Other than the fact that the bayonet I have had never been sharpened, I've noticed that the blade is more flexable than I would have thought it should be. Wouldn't that indicate a low hardness and therfore wouldn't hold an edge anyway?
Here is a crappy pic of the bayonet. Can anyone id it?

 

[not2sharp]

Well this has turned into a larger discussion than I anticipated. Lots of good info. Other than the fact that the bayonet I have had never been sharpened, I've noticed that the blade is more flexable than I would have thought it should be. Wouldn't that indicate a low hardness and therfore wouldn't hold an edge anyway?
Here is a crappy pic of the bayonet. Can anyone id it?

Japanese type 30, used in WWII.

n2s