Reproduction of the original 1907 bayonet, in 1913 all the Qillons were cut off the bayonets. http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/military.php?cab=weapons Oops me wrong
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Are bayonets supposed to be sharp?
- Thread starter Colog
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Reproduction of the original 1907 bayonet, in 1913 all the Qillons were cut off the bayonets. http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/military.php?cab=weapons Oops me wrong
Well this has turned into a larger discussion than I anticipated. Lots of good info. Other than the fact that the bayonet I have had never been sharpened, I've noticed that the blade is more flexable than I would have thought it should be. Wouldn't that indicate a low hardness and therfore wouldn't hold an edge anyway?
Here is a crappy pic of the bayonet. Can anyone id it?
Actually the first 1/3rd of the blade from the tip had a roughly ground edge from the armory. Its interesting that the Imperial Japanese war machine focused more on the use of the bayonet than shooting skills. They still had that Bushido mindset of the fearsomeness of cold steel.
If you take a pic of the blade marking you can figure out the arsenal where it was manufactured. By the look of it, it appears to be an early model before they started cutting corners in production.
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That was the last of the Enfields smle. i think they were made up until the end of the Korea conflict. That's why they had the short pike bayonets. Used for moving prisoners around and bayoneting if need be.
Its been years since i read it , The book about WWI, "All quiet on the western front" talks about the german Engineers bayo that had the root saw on the top for digging in a machine gun nest. The narrator in the book says that any kraut found with one of those Bayos was never taken prisoner and shot on the spot because the wound it would inflict would never heal.
Those and the tripoint bayonets were banned by the good old Geneva convention. I have seen plenty of tri-point fulcrum bayonets that were on Vietnam era Chinese SKS & AK-47 type rifles.
No I don't want to stabbed with any of them!
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I have heard and read many times about the Geneva Convention banning certain bayonets, but never have found any documentation to prove it is true. The M9 has a saw back, which went thru many forms till the military legal system was satisfied, and as pointed out the Chinese had a spike type bayonet on SKS and AK's and I do not remember anyone going to the UN about "Illegal Bayonets'. I think it is just another urban legend. John
not2sharp
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Not urban legend, but rather British and allied propaganda used as part of the war effort against the Germans during WWI. The Germans were forced to abandon production of the sawback 98-05 bayonet (issued to NCOs) and those in service were modified to have the saws ground off.
n2s
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Always a lot of hype discussing bayonets.
Army policy in my day was to resharpen them with a mill bastard file - a smooth cut, to get the edge close. In reality, the point does all the work puncturing. Even the rounded edge of rebar doesn't stop penetration when a construction worker falls on one. That's why you see the orange caps on them now - it's all about impact and the point penetrating. A chopped piece of 1/2" rebar can easily do it.
On specific condition the bayonet has to resist is breaking. That's required simply because bayonet practice is typically against wood or rubber targets designed to resist repeated thrusts. It won't do to have your bayonet break off in the first seconds of combat, after all, you were likely reduced to hand to hand measures because of a lack of ammunition. No, bayonets are NOT designed to deliberately break. If anything, the design and tempering method selected increase ductility, not hardness. You want a bayonet to bend and spring back - which is why they are hardened in the upper 40 to low 50RC. That isn't good edge holding hardness, it's spring tempering. And again, it's not the edge doing the work - it's the point.
Since troops wanted more knife like bayonets, the Army has catered to it, but the reality is that troops have carried a 4" folder since before the Civil War to take care of food prep and personal needs. It takes being in a combat theatre or an MP unit to get one issued, supply sergeants are adverse to handing out gear needlessly as soldiers are known to barter it off regardless of their fiscal responsibility.
As for the use of bayonets in combat, it's been exceedingly rare. It's done far more often by security units when confronted in civil demonstrations. That's it's most effective use - otherwise, it's just a melee. Plenty of soldiers have fought on after being bayoneted, it is just a puncture wound. If it misses an artery, it's not getting much done, it's not like the expansive power and shock of a bullet wound. There's plenty of documented instances of soldiers getting hit with up to .50 BMG strikes continuing in combat.
Let's not go overboard and start thinking bayontes are "devastating" or something. If you can parry the strike and get inside the reach of a combatant, you could easily counter with something like a tomahawk - a shorter weapon designed for truly close combat. Seems some of our troops are now carrying them, for intimidation, searches, and personal protection. One reason is that the effectiveness of a bayonet mounted on an assault weapon is much reduced from it's former days. Both they and the rifle are a lot shorter than they used to be, and the "stock" has design limitations as a hand held thrusting weapon. The pistol grip and magazine interfere with handling, and only the last 6 inches of the combination has any edge.
When technical advances change the weapons of war, the tactical countermeasures change, too.
Army policy in my day was to resharpen them with a mill bastard file - a smooth cut, to get the edge close. In reality, the point does all the work puncturing. Even the rounded edge of rebar doesn't stop penetration when a construction worker falls on one. That's why you see the orange caps on them now - it's all about impact and the point penetrating. A chopped piece of 1/2" rebar can easily do it.
On specific condition the bayonet has to resist is breaking. That's required simply because bayonet practice is typically against wood or rubber targets designed to resist repeated thrusts. It won't do to have your bayonet break off in the first seconds of combat, after all, you were likely reduced to hand to hand measures because of a lack of ammunition. No, bayonets are NOT designed to deliberately break. If anything, the design and tempering method selected increase ductility, not hardness. You want a bayonet to bend and spring back - which is why they are hardened in the upper 40 to low 50RC. That isn't good edge holding hardness, it's spring tempering. And again, it's not the edge doing the work - it's the point.
Since troops wanted more knife like bayonets, the Army has catered to it, but the reality is that troops have carried a 4" folder since before the Civil War to take care of food prep and personal needs. It takes being in a combat theatre or an MP unit to get one issued, supply sergeants are adverse to handing out gear needlessly as soldiers are known to barter it off regardless of their fiscal responsibility.
As for the use of bayonets in combat, it's been exceedingly rare. It's done far more often by security units when confronted in civil demonstrations. That's it's most effective use - otherwise, it's just a melee. Plenty of soldiers have fought on after being bayoneted, it is just a puncture wound. If it misses an artery, it's not getting much done, it's not like the expansive power and shock of a bullet wound. There's plenty of documented instances of soldiers getting hit with up to .50 BMG strikes continuing in combat.
Let's not go overboard and start thinking bayontes are "devastating" or something. If you can parry the strike and get inside the reach of a combatant, you could easily counter with something like a tomahawk - a shorter weapon designed for truly close combat. Seems some of our troops are now carrying them, for intimidation, searches, and personal protection. One reason is that the effectiveness of a bayonet mounted on an assault weapon is much reduced from it's former days. Both they and the rifle are a lot shorter than they used to be, and the "stock" has design limitations as a hand held thrusting weapon. The pistol grip and magazine interfere with handling, and only the last 6 inches of the combination has any edge.
When technical advances change the weapons of war, the tactical countermeasures change, too.
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So its urban legend or propaganda?
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure if the Chi-Coms ever signed the Geneva convention? But then I have heard gun shop talk when others have said we didn't sign it ether? There is so much mis and just plain wrong information about weapons in general out there.
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All I know is that the aluminum tri-point bayonet on my SKS was nasty. That thing wasn't sharpened in any capacity. Even the tip was blunt. If you poked that into anything living it probably wouldn't stay living for very long!
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That tip on those was to be used as a screw driver when you weren't Bayoneting someone! LOL
If anyone wants a good reference book?
The Military Knife & Bayonet, By Homer M. Brett has just about every known Bayonet & Knife from all Military's from the 1800's on.
It is in both English and Japanese print.
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I like this one. 
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SKS bayonets are hard chromed steel, not aluminum. Not sure I've ever saw a aluminum bayonet.
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It has 92 molded into the back.
Too lazy to set up another pic. It says ''Wechner AG CH-6415 Arth 92'' on the lower back of the frog. Yeesh, it looked like something from the 60's to me, I've never really examined anything but the actual bayonet itself. And it sits in a box as years go by. Kind of neat to look at now and then though.
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I don't have it in front me , but I am fairly sure my Yugo SKS has a Aluminum bayo on it. As well as some of those Chi-com Tri-points Sure looked and had the weight of a harden Aluminum?
One thing for sure is that SKS Yugo Bayo is dull as a fence post.