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Are most knives today too thick.
- Thread starter bodog
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Duane, I guess those videos that Cold Steel does as well as their print stuff is not marketing and always 100% truthful?
Stuff in Cablela's catalog is not about choosing their brand over another. Just as good right?
Placement of one product on a shelf in a grocery store relative to a competing product is not marketing? I have heard that Walmart charges for placement inside their stores. Could be false, have no idea.... but it is certainly not random.
I have no problem with marketing. A good salesman is a heck of an asset to a company marketing their product or services. It can not be understated how important it can be.
Stuff in Cablela's catalog is not about choosing their brand over another. Just as good right?
Placement of one product on a shelf in a grocery store relative to a competing product is not marketing? I have heard that Walmart charges for placement inside their stores. Could be false, have no idea.... but it is certainly not random.
I have no problem with marketing. A good salesman is a heck of an asset to a company marketing their product or services. It can not be understated how important it can be.
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A little definition to help with things. 
Duane Sanders
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My buck reaper is thin by the thick blade standard. What tests are you talking about for Bos heat treated 420HC? The finish is well worn off on mine. It holds an edge as good as any 1095 at the same HRC and most 1095 these days are softer than the bock Bos heat treat 420HC. It's just as tough too. I've seen bucks 420HC flex and snake it's way past knots in wood acting like it thought it was 5160 with a spring steel temper and come out as straight as it went in.
Now if your talking tests in someone's workshop, I don't pay any attention to them, it's not real world and you can concoct any test to make any blade fail or look bad compared to any other steel you want to. I've seen 300 Win mag, 45 ACP and 9x19mm kill deer dead on their feet. I'm sure laboratory tests will confirm that shouldn't happen.
I've used a whole list of steels in my life. I've settled on bucks USA made 420HC because in real world use it is out doing some "super" steels for edge retention in my vantage. In their fixed blades it's out doing the typically softer 1095s and its flexing muscles I've only seen 5160 do.
We could go on and on. One thing I've learned is a good steel with a heat treat tailored to that steel will out do much "better" premium steels with a lesser heat treat. I'm sure you could make a test to show its a failure, but I could come back with my own test to show it a winner. That stuff don't interest me. I have learned a few things over the years and with lots of things in life, you do not have to pay premium prices for the best performance. When I wear out my vantage I will buy another one. Even if it's 3x the price. It's work history for me tells me it's worth it. Anyone can say what they want, I'm not going to pay 4x as much to get the same amount of work out of a blade just to avoid a common unpopular steel.
I highly recommend you go to Walmart and get their sub $40.00 reaper and throw it on the belt the next time you step off the deck and use it. You will be pleasantly surprised by the edge retention along with its ability to slice, chop and split wood amongst other knife duties. They designed an actual knife. No hype, no useless thickness, just a great working knife.
bodog
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Yes, but they normally aren't. I've always wondered why you only usually see big thick choppers out of steels like 3V or PD1 when you can make a thick chopper out of steels much cheaper that do just as well and are easier to work with. I think 3V or PD1 would shine in relatively thin blades, especially if they were heat treated to absolutely minimize the grain size. Do I think any joe Schmo could take some 1080 and heat it with a torch and take it super thin where the knife could do really well? No. But if you get someone who can maximize structural integrity during the hardening process over the normal mindset of maximizing hardness or wear resistance you can take what would be a normally decently good steels like 1095 or 52100 and make something that is impressive, even when experience from other makers leaves something to be desired. Waterstone Blades is the only one I see that is usually working with steels like Z-wear or 3V in super thin blades.
PS, I've broken two 420HC knives doing stuff like what was pictured in the first couple of posts. They were considerably thicker. I'm not impressed with 420HC, at least the 3 or 4 from buck I've used before.
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Me too and I am slowly moving back to them for most of my using. I frequently state that I carry a large SAK, but I also often carry a large slip joint and a smaller sak, OR the large sak and a modern folder like a ZT or Spydie.
Love the cutting ability and convenience of slip joints. These all have thin blades. So I am in agreement generally that the thicker blades on folders are often un-necessary. There are exceptions of course. Most of the better steels are on moderns with thicker steel. With fixed blades, I love the in between bar steel thicknesses in general, but I am not much of a user of Mora blades. I just don't have a lot of routine need for fixed blades and I only carry them when I head to the woods.
It was mentioned that you would never see a deer hunter with a BK-7. I certainly wouldn't carry one for field chores, but a BK-7 might come in handy for other purposes in the woods. So, it is not a one size fits all kind of thing. Lots of choices and I love the availability of the choices in knives. For a non-knife person, about the only thing they are going to be looking at is the size and price.
Duane Sanders
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Not everyone is as uninformed as you lead on to.
bodog
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Yeah, a lot of times they are unless they've taken time to learn something. Most people don't have enough time or energy to learn a lot about a lot of things. Talk to 10 people and 9 of them think there's only surgical stainless steel being used in cutlery. Tell them that a company is using the best steel known to man and it's 440A and if the marketing seems reliable then they'll believe it. 440A may be good for certain applications but it'd be hard for ANY steel to be called the best for knife applications, let alone 440A.
Duane Sanders
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Nothing sensational there. I've seen mine hold an edge like high carbon steels. I've seen mine do all of that stuff.
There is a huge difference between an overview and a sensational misleading advertisement.
Sounds like they went out and used it for a while before they wrote that. Anyone who uses one would say pretty much the same.
To whoever mentioned the cold steel videos. You won't see them unless you actively seek them out. If someone has a use for a knife them videos won't trick them into buying something they don't need. It might impress someone looking to buy a knife with no use for it but that's an extreme minority of knife buyers.
People don't buy a sharp finger for chopping because they seen a video of one skinning a deer. People don't buy a BK7 to dress deer because they seen one on YouTube beating logs to pieces.
It's not confusing at all. With the big game seasons near by or already started you guys should observe the knives everyone is using for game processing. You won't see any Becker survival knives. Even if they watched 200 hours of Beckers beating wood on YouTube before the season.
trevitrace
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My point it that it is marketing. Marketing and misrepresentation are not the same thing, though they aren't mutually exclusive either.
bodog
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I was wondering the same.
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Me too. But it is not the imported Schrade stuff that he is touting as being really good. Nothing wrong with Buck knives.
People actually do buy knives that are totally unsuited for the task at hand such as field dressing a deer. Duane, you give people far too much credit. And the 16 year old kid that gets all his information from the "web" may absolutely believe the Cold Steel videos. Not all of course. What about the kids that buy the cheap swords thinking they are real swords? I mean, get serious, how could anyone believe you can buy a precision crafted sword for $20?
Oh, by the way, I buy knives all the time that I have no defineable use for other than I wanted it.
People actually do buy knives that are totally unsuited for the task at hand such as field dressing a deer. Duane, you give people far too much credit. And the 16 year old kid that gets all his information from the "web" may absolutely believe the Cold Steel videos. Not all of course. What about the kids that buy the cheap swords thinking they are real swords? I mean, get serious, how could anyone believe you can buy a precision crafted sword for $20?
Oh, by the way, I buy knives all the time that I have no defineable use for other than I wanted it.
Outside of the point of this argument but I've talked a lot with the guy that heat treats that 420HC, and after speaking with him, I believe it would have outstanding performance. He knows his stuff and has treated a few for me as well and I see exactly what you are saying.
On the other hand, I use a bigger knife than a BK7 to skin elk every year, and it's hard to "generalize" these things.
Duane Sanders
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Very true. Some people can do fine detailed sculptures with a chainsaw. I can't cut trees with one without doing the ugliest of basic cuts with one.
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I often wondered how the old mountain men/fur trappers from the 1800's did everything so well with their big "hudson bay" knives (essentially sharpened pry bars). Or did they have a smaller knife tucked away? I'm just not that good with a big knife cutting stuff unless I don't care and certainly you do care if you are skinning a beaver, fox, or wolf out for the hide. I guess it is a practice makes perfect kind of thing and a really sharp knife.
I know it goes against the logic of the Havalon principle and what a lot of people are using, but I've found when it comes to skinning the thick hide off of something, heft in a knife seems to help. I've used plenty of small knives to get it done with good steel for skinning, such as D2,3V, and S30V, but prefer a thick heavy knife, with less razor sharpness to get rough with it and do a quick job. I'm not a surgeon, and don't know all the knife geometry mumbo jumbo, but I know what works for me. I've skinned some longhorn steers out as well with the intent of keeping the hide intact, without holes and the same concept is true. Skinning a thin skinned animal like a wolf....probably a different story. Never skinned a wolf. Lots of white tail though...and then I do downsize my knife.
Overly thick folding knives are in fashion right now. The vast majority of city dwellers would be better served by a thin folding knife for everyday cutting tasks. But remember the adage, "The customer is always right." Vendors will provide what the public requests. Only a small percentage of the knife buying public base their purchasing decisions primarily on real world performance. Fashion plays a far more dominant role. It's okay.
I can't say if most knives today are too thick although it's a noticeable trend, but a very large reason I sold my XM-18 3.5" is because even in the Slicer configuration, it's just far too thick for my needs and frankly didn't cut worth a damn. If I need something that thick I'll use a fixed blade or my Adamas, for a lot less cost. Marketing, hype, and faux exclusivity sell a lot of XMs, and I fell for it, plus as a knife guy, it's just one of those you obsess over till you try one. Still on the fence about keeping my 3". I feel like a thick blade in a small knife doesn't make a ton of sense.
Not intended to be a rant on any one brand, just my experience with thick knives.
Not intended to be a rant on any one brand, just my experience with thick knives.
bodog
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So I am finally getting around to sharpening the knife in the original post. I measured the original edge angle at just about 8 dps straight from BCMW. I'm widening it to 15 dps until the chips are gone then I'll reprofile it back to about 10 dps.
So a knife that thin with an inclusive angle of about 16 dps total could still do what it did. Pretty impressive.
I don't know what the hardness is but it's acting quite a bit more abrasion resistant than another 52100 knife I have from BCMW that he spec'ed at 61 rc. The other knife is considerably thicker, too.
So a knife that thin with an inclusive angle of about 16 dps total could still do what it did. Pretty impressive.
I don't know what the hardness is but it's acting quite a bit more abrasion resistant than another 52100 knife I have from BCMW that he spec'ed at 61 rc. The other knife is considerably thicker, too.
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