Are most knives today too thick.

[22-rimfire]

One needs to split knives into fixed and folders if you want to get into this kind of discussion and not mix the two or seem to blend the characteristics of both into a knife. As you said, a folder's weak point is generally the pivot. Fixed blade weakness tend to be the point or tip area and at the ricasso position next to the handle. Often breaking a fixed blade at the ricasso is due to poor materials/factory defects, but obviously if you pound on your knives, you might just break one now and then. That's fine as long as you aren't out in the woods or field "surviving" some sort of emergency situation.

I honestly think younger folks are very attracted to the thicker bar steel knives and mostly for the same reasons that I was attracted to them years ago... marketing, hype, and buying the "one knife" to do it all, illusions of knife fighting, throwing knives, and just general fantasy. As you use knives, you tend to start to discriminate between what you personally find useful and what you might just think are "cool" but have little real use for them. I have absolutely no problem with "cool".

As I have often said, I tend to use Vic SAKs for 90% of my cutting outside the kitchen regardless of being in the woods or at work. I like the security that a medium thickness fixed blade gives me if I am out in the woods as you just never know what could happen when you're by yourself. I have no problem with folks carrying the 1/4" blade stock "prybars" in the woods, but they're heavy and more suited for chopping and prying. The Kabar Becker BK-9 kind of straddles the fence between prybar and finese knife considering it is a 9" bladed knife. But I don't own one.

I picked up a Condor Kumunga which has a 10" blade. I find it to be a really cool knife and I could envision a situation where I might want to carry a machete for limited chopping (or think I should) and just carry the Kumunga instead. It is a prybar, but a long one. I could probably get by slicing vegies with it. But honestly, I almost never slice vegies (except tomatoes which is technically a fruit).

I am not a big user of Mora knives and I know they are generally great cutters with their thin blade stock. I have three I believe at the moment. They feel more like kitchen knives to me. But that's okay too. I'm glad I have them, but don't envision going out and buying a bunch more to tuck into every vehicle and corner of my house, just in case.

 

[Ankerson]

They do suck. I'm a chef and I don't ever abuse my kitchen knives, but shun has been known for chippy edges. Plus their ergonomics is designed by Tonka trucks (joke). Many chef forums will have the same things said.

I would think MOST of the production type kitchen/Chef's knives would be considered junk by MOST real Chefs.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The problem is not so much a "thin knives are awesome, thick knives suck" argument as much as knives that are built for a certain range of function being overbuilt and marketed to users as a high-performance tool. It's a misrepresentation that leads to an overall poorer experience without the end user realizing that they could be getting better results from a different tool. Efficiency and resilience are usually qualities at opposition with one another, with a perfectly efficient design having zero insurance factor built in. That is to say that if they're used even the slightest bit harder than intended, they fail. The greater the resilience the more resistant to accidental damage the tool is, but the lower the performance. There needs to be an appropriate balance between the two. An underbuilt tool will fail, while an overbuilt tool will yield low performance compared to a properly optimized design--insurance factor included.

 

[Duane Sanders]

You're missing the point. Here's a super thin knife that can be pounded on quite a bit. Nothing is wrong with carrying a thick knife if someone wants to but if the knifemaker did what they were supposed to do most people could use thin knives easier than and abuse them as much as thick. Barring getting into territory that only a few manufacturers warranty the knives for, anyway.

The point is simply that thin knives, when done right, work better for most things and can withstand true use. Most people haven't had a knife be that thin and simultaneously using good steel heat treated well. They think they need the thick knives because they haven't tried a thin knife. That's not to say a thick knife isn't needed, it is, sometimes. But for most people? I doubt it. I just wanted to show what a good knife with appropriate steel heat treated well could actually do. I don't see many, if any, thread talking about thin knives being used for anything more than kitchen or fillet knives or simple box cutters.

I get the point. A thin slicey blade lacks the weight needed to chop.

In today's market you can buy a knife that will chop a limb from a tree that fell by your shooting lane from the last visit to the stand before sun up. You can use the same knife to dress the game because field dressing is pretty coarse work. That hunter can leave the hatchet home and leave the dressing knife at home.

People aren't going to buy a .100" thick blade for that. It might work for you but the majority of knife users and buyers like a knife to do more than be slicey that can kinda handle being beaten on, now that I see them chips in the edge.

It's not marketing. People buy them thick unslicey blades because they either need it or have a great potential to use one.

I have many slicer knives. They get used more than any other of my blades. If or when I need to chop they get put back in their place.

Them knives you pictured are neat, like a runway model, thin and slicey but not much good for bringing home the bacon.

 

[bodog]

The problem is not so much a "thin knives are awesome, thick knives suck" argument as much as knives that are built for a certain range of function being overbuilt and marketed to users as a high-performance tool. It's a misrepresentation that leads to an overall poorer experience without the end user realizing that they could be getting better results from a different tool. Efficiency and resilience are usually qualities at opposition with one another, with a perfectly efficient design having zero insurance factor built in. That is to say that if they're used even the slightest bit harder than intended, they fail. The greater the resilience the more resistant to accidental damage the tool is, but the lower the performance. There needs to be an appropriate balance between the two. An underbuilt tool will fail, while an overbuilt tool will yield low performance compared to a properly optimized design--insurance factor included.

:thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

The problem is not so much a "thin knives are awesome, thick knives suck" argument as much as knives that are built for a certain range of function being overbuilt and marketed to users as a high-performance tool. It's a misrepresentation that leads to an overall poorer experience without the end user realizing that they could be getting better results from a different tool. Efficiency and resilience are usually qualities at opposition with one another, with a perfectly efficient design having zero insurance factor built in. That is to say that if they're used even the slightest bit harder than intended, they fail. The greater the resilience the more resistant to accidental damage the tool is, but the lower the performance. There needs to be an appropriate balance between the two. An underbuilt tool will fail, while an overbuilt tool will yield low performance compared to a properly optimized design--insurance factor included.

There has to be a balance.

With the current marketing and YT videos I can see why a lot of the knives are built like they are and I really don't blame the manufactures completely for making them that way.

If people want knives that have a better balance of performance they need to stop buying the tanks and the makers will make more of the thinner ones..

 

[22-rimfire]

If one looks at extremes, the razor blade (or disposable utility knife blade)are wonderful cutters, damage easily, and get dull fairly quickly and the other extreme is an axe which you can sharpen up to field dress a deer, but is better suited for other more coarse work with a very thick edge. It is the in-between where the discussion lies; and personal preference and experience comes into play.

 

[klute]

I've been there. Sometimes I've done things with knives that WOULD break thinner blades. I carry both. I make no bones about it though. The two knives I carry a consistent design concept throughout. Lighter uses get the folder. More demanding uses get the fixed blade. If I had to carry one knife, it'd be some kind of medium thin fixed blade with tough steel hardened to withstand some stupidity. If I can get a knife like that to be stupid thin, hard, and with at least good edge retention, that, my friend, is the best of all worlds. Just my opinion based on my needs and experience.

That would be the Ontario SK5 [0.13 inch blade thick] which is what woke me up to the thinner fixed blade general purpose knife as opposed to specialized thin knives and I am going to grab one when i get the money. I really think you are on to something and i also like to have a stout folder I can hammer on and as a few others here i edc 2 knives mostly, one thin and one more beefy. Also think here should be fewer sabre grinds / more FFGs on folders as sabre is kinda unnecessary yet i would still like them on certain models.

 

[bodog]

I get the point. A thin slicey blade lacks the weight needed to chop.

In today's market you can buy a knife that will chop a limb from a tree that fell by your shooting lane from the last visit to the stand before sun up. You can use the same knife to dress the game because field dressing is pretty coarse work. That hunter can leave the hatchet home and leave the dressing knife at home.

People aren't going to buy a .100" thick blade for that. It might work for you but the majority of knife users and buyers like a knife to do more than be slicey that can kinda handle being beaten on, now that I see them chips in the edge.

It's not marketing. People buy them thick unslicey blades because they either need it or have a great potential to use one.

I have many slicer knives. They get used more than any other of my blades. If or when I need to chop they get put back in their place.

Them knives you pictured are neat, like a runway model, thin and slicey but not much good for bringing home the bacon.

Well, even though it's lighter it makes deeper cuts per chop. It stabs deeper per thrust. I have full control when carving, going deep or shallow as I see fit. Like I mentioned earlier, this knife is probably a tad thin for me as an all purpose knife but it wasn't really made for that, either. It's design is obviously meant for kitchen duties. But I don't know of many thin kitchen knives at fairly high hardness that can take any kind of a beating and still be functional. The point of the thread isn't so much that thick knives are stupid. I don't think any has said anything close to that. I believe that poor hear treatments, poor steel choices, and poor knife geometries have made it where people believe they need something for more robust than necessary if a maker did things right to begin with.

The reason I did this was not to break a blade or tell anyone they're wrong about what they like. It was to show just how thin a knife with a good steel and a good heat treatment can go and still be perfectly capable of edc duties and more. Would it be a good knife for stabbing zombies? No. You'd probably want to go a little thicker. Would it be good for clearing a path through the woods? No, it'd probably need to be longer. Could it skin an amimal? Probably, but having more belly would probably help. But look at how thin it is and how well it did until I hacked at metal with the super thin blade. That SHOULD be impressive to you but instead you're taking it as a personal affront to your opinions. Are today's blades too thick? IMO absolutely. I think a 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick scandi ground knife blade is preposterous. That's my opinion, you're free to feel otherwise. You don't have to get all hurt about it when someone shows that it may very well be preposterous. If you like 1/2 thick knife blades more power to you, but they are usually pretty inefficient for most everything a knife could possibly be for. No one will think any less of you for liking those kinds of knives. People like ninja stars. People like nunchukus. People like .50 sniper rifles. People buy motorcycles that can go 230 mph and never take them above 80. Are any of those efficient and the best tool for most people? No. And people shouldn't be suckered into believing they are. But is it bad that there's a bunch of people that want super fast bikes without having any need for them? No. They're collectors pieces or meant for professional racing. That's about all they're good for, and that's fine. But people don't NEED them.

 

[22-rimfire]

Hmm.... I honestly don't recall seeing any 1/2" thick blades on knives. Even real prybars, the edge is much thinner. Crow bars come closer. Yeah, you can sharpen those up too.

As far as the motorcycle analogy, the difference is that those bikes capable of 230 mph (bit of a stretch in reality) can accelerate to 80 mph very quickly and that is the appeal for the most part. It's a bit different with knives, but still if you are thinking about "the one" knife to do it all, many will choose the 1/4" blade stock knife because it "should be" stronger and tougher.

 

[bodog]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1037606-Thick-heavy-chopping-knife

 

[Todd21969]

It is the in-between where the discussion lies; and personal preference and experience comes into play.

Add "use" to that and I might agree.

There are some blue collar guys around on this board who like quality steel. And use a knife for more than opening mail or slicing veggies for a salad in the break room.

A Vic Classic would not cut it for just one 8 hour shift.

Which of course leads to what has already been mentioned dozens of posts ago....

Paraphrasing....

"My knife is best!"

"No, mine is!"

Add to this the members basing other's needs on their own uses, or what people used in the past (another poster)

I, myself, would hate to use a hammer and chisel instead of my
31,000 pound hydraulic stone splitter at work.

Sometimes it is just product advancement. Not just a fad or because it is cool [emoji4]

 

[Duane Sanders]

Well, even though it's lighter it makes deeper cuts per chop. It stabs deeper per thrust. I have full control when carving, going deep or shallow as I see fit. Like I mentioned earlier, this knife is probably a tad thin for me as an all purpose knife but it wasn't really made for that, either. It's design is obviously meant for kitchen duties. But I don't know of many thin kitchen knives at fairly high hardness that can take any kind of a beating and still be functional. The point of the thread isn't so much that thick knives are stupid. I don't think any has said anything close to that. I believe that poor hear treatments, poor steel choices, and poor knife geometries have made it where people believe they need something for more robust than necessary if a maker did things right to begin with.

The reason I did this was not to break a blade or tell anyone they're wrong about what they like. It was to show just how thin a knife with a good steel and a good heat treatment can go and still be perfectly capable of edc duties and more. Would it be a good knife for stabbing zombies? No. You'd probably want to go a little thicker. Would it be good for clearing a path through the woods? No, it'd probably need to be longer. Could it skin an amimal? Probably, but having more belly would probably help. But look at how thin it is and how well it did until I hacked at metal with the super thin blade. That SHOULD be impressive to you but instead you're taking it as a personal affront to your opinions. Are today's blades too thick? IMO absolutely. I think a 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick scandi ground knife blade is preposterous. That's my opinion, you're free to feel otherwise. You don't have to get all hurt about it when someone shows that it may very well be preposterous. If you like 1/2 thick knife blades more power to you, but they are usually pretty inefficient for most everything a knife could possibly be for. No one will think any less of you for liking those kinds of knives. People like ninja stars. People like nunchukus. People like .50 sniper rifles. People buy motorcycles that can go 230 mph and never take them above 80. Are any of those efficient and the best tool for most people? No. And people shouldn't be suckered into believing they are. But is it bad that there's a bunch of people that want super fast bikes without having any need for them? No. They're collectors pieces or meant for professional racing. That's about all they're good for, and that's fine. But people don't NEED them.

You are under estimating the amount of people who put them "thick" blades to needed use.

My "thick" blade is the Buck reaper too. They hit a grand slam when they designed a blade that's highly functional and very diverse in what it can do. I've done more than a days beating on it on the deck out back. It won't chip like the blade in your pictures, I've tried to get it to, it won't. It chops surprisingly well too. The first couple chops dig in so deep it sticks in but removes easily for me. After that it chunks out the rest real well. Their Bos heat treated 420HC acts just like 1095 for toughness and edge retention and it refuses to rust. The knife is a winner and it's not exactly thin, but it's not thick either.

For less than $40.00 at Walmart you get a USA made blade with super tough dymondwood scales. I'm considering drilling out at the least one of the lanyard holes or both in the scales.

People don't buy stuff because of marketing. Companies market products because people need them. The marketing lets people know what's available. People who need them don't base their need off of YouTube videos. People who watch them videos and don't need such a knife might think different but you don't need it, so you won't like it. So don't buy it. There are plenty of thin slicer blades out there. More than there is thick chopping ones. Just go to any store that sells knives. You are going to find blades made more for slicing and you will be lucky to find any heavy duty choppers. If you want one because you need one you will have to order it online.

 

[22-rimfire]

<snip>....People don't buy stuff because of marketing. Companies market products because people need them. The marketing lets people know what's available. People who need them don't base their need off of YouTube videos. People who watch them videos and don't need such a knife might think different but you don't need it, so you won't like it. So don't buy it. There are plenty of thin slicer blades out there. More than there is thick chopping ones. Just go to any store that sells knives. You are going to find blades made more for slicing and you will be lucky to find any heavy duty choppers. If you want one because you need one you will have to order it online.

I think you under estimate the power of marketing and the U-tube videos. Also the influence of the forum reviews and discussion are substantial. But yeah, there are a wide selection of knives available in various steel thicknesses to satisfy the broad demand in knives whether it be a 8 year old kid or a 75 year old grandma.

 

[bodog]

You are under estimating the amount of people who put them "thick" blades to needed use.

My "thick" blade is the Buck reaper too. They hit a grand slam when they designed a blade that's highly functional and very diverse in what it can do. I've done more than a days beating on it on the deck out back. It won't chip like the blade in your pictures, I've tried to get it to, it won't. It chops surprisingly well too. The first couple chops dig in so deep it sticks in but removes easily for me. After that it chunks out the rest real well. Their Bos heat treated 420HC acts just like 1095 for toughness and edge retention and it refuses to rust. The knife is a winner and it's not exactly thin, but it's not thick either.

For less than $40.00 at Walmart you get a USA made blade with super tough dymondwood scales. I'm considering drilling out at the least one of the lanyard holes or both in the scales.

People don't buy stuff because of marketing. Companies market products because people need them. The marketing lets people know what's available. People who need them don't base their need off of YouTube videos. People who watch them videos and don't need such a knife might think different but you don't need it, so you won't like it. So don't buy it. There are plenty of thin slicer blades out there. More than there is thick chopping ones. Just go to any store that sells knives. You are going to find blades made more for slicing and you will be lucky to find any heavy duty choppers. If you want one because you need one you will have to order it online.

Ok. I'm glad you found something that works for you.

 

[sideways]

The problem is not so much a "thin knives are awesome, thick knives suck" argument as much as knives that are built for a certain range of function being overbuilt and marketed to users as a high-performance tool. It's a misrepresentation that leads to an overall poorer experience without the end user realizing that they could be getting better results from a different tool. Efficiency and resilience are usually qualities at opposition with one another, with a perfectly efficient design having zero insurance factor built in. That is to say that if they're used even the slightest bit harder than intended, they fail. The greater the resilience the more resistant to accidental damage the tool is, but the lower the performance. There needs to be an appropriate balance between the two. An underbuilt tool will fail, while an overbuilt tool will yield low performance compared to a properly optimized design--insurance factor included.

Yes.

Nobody is saying people can't have their choppers.

Somehow batoning hardwood became THE standard by which all knives are measured. Meeting the standard led to over-engineering at the cost of cutting performance. This hurt the uninformed customer. All they wanted was a picnic knife and what they got was undersized crowbar.

This isn't just a problem in the knife world. Things get over-engineered all over the place. Take the example of the 6 ton truck someone used. I would rather have a truck that uses less fuel and has a lower loading height for doing my grunt work. They no longer make those though... It's all high lifts, v8's, and stepladders. It has nothing to do with utility because for the most part these items are not tools. They are status symbols.

 

[TexasWade]

I don't know about most knives being too thick, but the trend seems to be toward knives quite a bit thicker than I prefer. At least for EDC, a box cutter (Stanley knife) really would be sufficient for most tasks and what thickness blades do those use? .025-.030" or so. That's like the ultimate utility knife and you can even pound those little blades through plenty of stuff if you want. Even more so than with a nice knife, since if you break the damn thing you just grab another one out of the 100 pack! But that's all about utility and no real style or personality.

As for an interesting and satisfying knife, I recently picked up a Mini Barrage and like it quite a bit, but I think I would be even better if the .100" thick blade were only about .080".

 

[HwangJino]

I would think MOST of the production type kitchen/Chef's knives would be considered junk by MOST real Chefs.

I've been surprised by the cheaper knives and disappointed by some 'luxury' knives.
Mac is a cheap brand but no complaints, I'd rather pay for Mac knives than get free shun knives.

 

[inkynate]

For my uses I find most knives are too thick. Finally figured I'd have to learn to grind.

Today's practice:

MU-1130 ~0.01", 12.5dps

 

[Todd21969]

I think you under estimate the power of marketing and the U-tube videos. Also the influence of the forum reviews and discussion are substantial.

I think you over estimate your knife needs and opinion.

In a typical day I cut pallet strapping, packing tape, conveyor belt, hydraulic lines, compressor lines, cut out the fittings for reuse, pry collars of pistons, trim cut resistant gloves, pry staples from pallets, remove stone chips from body parts and even pry stones from my boot treads. You???

I guess I am just a victim of marketing and you tube vids, not an informed buyer. [emoji6]