Are the "teething problems" of S30V and S35VN gone?

palonej said:
How true Joe.
We have a few self proclaimed ‘experts’ on You Tube that feel it is their responsibility to educate us Knife knuts.
All that BS comes down to is click bait.
I especially loved the sanctimonious apostle’s vid titled ‘Comsumer Alert’. Alerting us to the fact that Spydie was calling their customers stupid by using red Loctite.
Jdavis was another pinhead in that regard. I remember Sal reached out to him to send that Native in for testing......never happened.
Joe
Click to expand...
You already know my thoughts on apostle p, my thread on him was mentioned in one of his videos lol
 
A colorful thread for sure Chris!!
That dude turns my stomach. If it’s not the phlegm that’s gargled it’s that know it all attitude that is so smarmy it makes your skin crawl.
All those sychophants kissing his butt has gone to his head.
Nauseating dude.
Joe


shinyedges said:
You already know my thoughts on apostle p, my thread on him was mentioned in one of his videos lol
Click to expand...
 
palonej said:
Jdavis was another pinhead in that regard. I remember Sal reached out to him to send that Native in for testing......never happened.
Joe
Click to expand...

Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMs are less prone to micro chipping than regular steels, giving the illusion of cutting paper better after X amount of cuts. Maybe the folded apex is amazingly tenacious, and holds on forever while slicing: Who knows? To me it's still a micro-folded apex that will inevitably get worse under chopping.

I get it that chopping is out of fashion, and that batoning is all the rage: Batoning will micro-fold all steels below 20 dps, so of course you can't tell the difference... (And that, unfortunately, tells me you can't tell batoning is nefarious to your edge either, which means few of you use the nail test at all)

All I can say is stop batoning, start chopping (it even helps precision cutting in small tasks, rather than pushing like a madman; try it), rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
 
Lies and misinformation. Readers beware.
Gaston444 said:
Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMs are less prone to micro chipping than regular steels, giving the illusion of cutting paper better after X amount of cuts. Maybe the folded apex is amazingly tenacious, and holds on forever while slicing: Who knows? To me it's still a micro-folded apex that will inevitably get worse under chopping.

I get it that chopping is out of fashion, and that batoning is all the rage: Batoning will micro-fold all steels below 20 dps, so of course you can't tell the difference... (And that, unfortunately, tells me you can't tell batoning is nefarious to your edge either, which means few of you use the nail test at all)

All I can say is stop batoning, start chopping (it even helps precision cutting in small tasks, rather than pushing like a madman; try it), rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
Click to expand...
 
Like anything else- research the people who try to "inform" and your answer will come very quickly.
Scholarly information comes from credible sources. Jdavis and credibility, reliability and knowledge do not belong anywhere close together in a sentence. Laughable at best..Anyone hanging their hat on the values of this guy should be suspect as well.
 
wow

Gaston444 said:
Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMs are less prone to micro chipping than regular steels, giving the illusion of cutting paper better after X amount of cuts. Maybe the folded apex is amazingly tenacious, and holds on forever while slicing: Who knows? To me it's still a micro-folded apex that will inevitably get worse under chopping.

I get it that chopping is out of fashion, and that batoning is all the rage: Batoning will micro-fold all steels below 20 dps, so of course you can't tell the difference... (And that, unfortunately, tells me you can't tell batoning is nefarious to your edge either, which means few of you use the nail test at all)

All I can say is stop batoning, start chopping (it even helps precision cutting in small tasks, rather than pushing like a madman; try it), rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
Click to expand...
 
Twindog said:
There certainly was an issue with S30V chipping in the early days, although it was controversial even then. My EDC is a Benchmade Rukus, first production run. Even after all these years and many sharpening down to "good" steel, it will still chip under hard use. With normal or light use, it's not an issue. But in the early days, some blades would micro-chip with even light use. One knife maker told me the problem was in the quench. If S30V isn't quenched quickly enough, it can chip.

Personally, I think S30V is an excellent steel. It's more difficult than most steels to properly heat treat; but if you get it right, the steel is great. Look at all the major companies that use it. They like it. It works. But it did chip.
Click to expand...

You carry a full size Rukus as your EDC? Do you have to wear a belt AND suspenders? That's a lot of knife to EDC! I tried to do the same with my Contego, it was just too much knife for my pocket, and I'm 6'3", 300 lbs, not what you would call a dainty little thing.

Kudos man, that is one Hell of a knife!

Jim
 
gaston444's.... "The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules..."

see him use this over and over as the only argument for his beliefs on steels. is it real or...........? has anyone ever found this supposed study with as much publication on the internet as there is and archived servers of about anything and everything ever posted on the internet..seems he/we could find it. maybe even contact knives illustrated and see if they admit its real or made up. so im basically wondering if we can we put this to rest somehow as real or made up?

think im gonna contact knives illustrated and see what they say........
 
Gaston444 said:
Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMsyou will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
Click to expand...

Well, I guess those CPM steels are nowhere near the quality level of your X-acto blades, eh?

Jim
 
Gaston444 said:
Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMs are less prone to micro chipping than regular steels, giving the illusion of cutting paper better after X amount of cuts. Maybe the folded apex is amazingly tenacious, and holds on forever while slicing: Who knows? To me it's still a micro-folded apex that will inevitably get worse under chopping.

I get it that chopping is out of fashion, and that batoning is all the rage: Batoning will micro-fold all steels below 20 dps, so of course you can't tell the difference... (And that, unfortunately, tells me you can't tell batoning is nefarious to your edge either, which means few of you use the nail test at all)

All I can say is stop batoning, start chopping (it even helps precision cutting in small tasks, rather than pushing like a madman; try it), rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
Click to expand...
I did a fair amount of chopping with a 3v knife in hard wood this weekend. Did fine. No nail hanging at all.
 
bhyde said:
Like anything else- research the people who try to "inform" and your answer will come very quickly.
Scholarly information comes from credible sources. Jdavis and credibility, reliability and knowledge do not belong anywhere close together in a sentence. Laughable at best..Anyone hanging their hat on the values of this guy should be suspect as well.
Click to expand...
Why isn't Gaston one of the folks that liked this comment?

Speaking of you G Gaston444 if you didn't know, S35vn actually designed specifically for knives by folks in the knife industry.

Edit to add, one of those folks that were instrumental in S35vn coming to fruition was Chris Reeve, one of the more well renowned names in the industry.
 
Last edited:
Address the question, not other posters.
 
jbmonkey said:
gaston444's.... "The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules..."

see him use this over and over as the only argument for his beliefs on steels. is it real or...........? has anyone ever found this supposed study with as much publication on the internet as there is and archived servers of about anything and everything ever posted on the internet..seems he/we could find it. maybe even contact knives illustrated and see if they admit its real or made up. so im basically wondering if we can we put this to rest somehow as real or made up?

think im gonna contact knives illustrated and see what they say........
Click to expand...
Would love to hear their response.
 
knarfeng said:
Address the question, not other posters.
Click to expand...
My apologies, I didn't mean to come across as rude or abrasive. I was just trying to show an example of a blade steel that was designed for the knife industry, not all are designed with manufacturing as a forethought.
 
ScooterG said:
There’s no stopping the DeLorean once it hits 88mph.
Click to expand...

Then we would get a bright flash, and it would be gone from our current locale within the space/time continuum.

Gaston, both S30V and S35VN where developed specifically for making knife blades by Crucible working with Chris Reeve.
 
Last edited:
The Mastiff said:
I remember the problem with S30V. Every time a suspect knife was tested in the lab at Crucible they found nothing wrong except in one case. That was a blown heat treat IIRC and it was a custom maker not one of the major companies we deal with here. It turned out there wasn't a problem after all. Some people/knife makers weren't exactly blowing anything but the way the knives were finished wasn't ideal. There was no progression up grit #s during sharpening on the belts. They were ground then finished at whatever they were left at. Hand sharpening at home had many guys doing things properly which was one of the reasons the idea of "sharpening off the burnt steel" became common knowledge. The thing was in the labs there wasn't any burnt steel.

To give people a fix to the problem they fiddled with the chemistry. Notably they put in Niobium to pin the grain boundaries which was nice but not really needed. It fixed a non existent problem but it did give us a choice of another really good steel so for us consumers it worked out. I wouldn't guess how much R&D dollars were spent by Crucible though to fix a problem someone with little real knowledge of steel created from having a larger ego than a knowledge base. Crucible later went out of business and was purchased by Carpenter, I believe?

Unfortunately there was a guy that then "found" a problem with S35Vn steel leading to more common knowledge about a problem that didn't exist. It was a lack of sharpening skill with the one self professed you tube reviewer and that naturally caused other people to agree showing how knowledgeable they too were.

A similar thing happened with Elmax and Kershaw/ZT. Naturally common knowledge has it that the heat treat was changed and there are generations of certain knives with good and bad steel.

Essentially the problem is one for sociologists or ? more than it is metallurgists. The point I'm making is it's inevitable that when we see new steels introduced some self appointed expert will attempt to show how he found and diagnosed a problem no one else did and it will catch hold like a spark in tinder and become a fact to some people even though it isn't true.

In my 50 years of knife use I can't say I've ever found a true blown heat treat. I've seen pot metal blades from Pakistan with unhardened stainless in the 40's to low 50's hrc ( I think it was stainless steel) but I've never encountered a quality made knife that was that snafu'ed up and if I ever do I'll return it under warranty. Typically though when I see someone posting something I find hard to believe I try to find out more before I begin talking about things I'm not really qualified to talk about especially when it's having to do with someones money and livelihood.

Joe
Click to expand...

Any idea how much truth there was to the stories of ZT with its early use of Elmax? Is there any validity to the claim they were some how messing this steel up?

Because I own the first ZT0801 which features Elmax steel. I first heard the rumors about ZT botching the treat on Elmax. I got my 801 just before those these rumors started. On mine it was completely finen

So do you know? Does anyone know? Was ZT fudging up Elmax or is it all just a buncha nonsense?
 
Gaston444 said:
Since when has sending a failed knife back to a large manufacturer resulted in any definitive conclusions? It's always "We fixed it on the subsequent runs"... There's nothing else a big maker can say...

S35VN failed across two different top-end makers on camera (neither cases having anything to do with chipping: Flattening, rolling and outright edge warping instead). JDavis has no duty, or even reasons, to provide Sal an opportunity to mitigate the result of his efforts...: The very act of sending it back implies these is something wrong with his results: Why would HE have the responsibility to negate his own effort?

It is up to Sal to send him a knife that succeeds, not the other way around...

You don't like his results so you call him a pinhead. I get it. Wait five minutes and people will bring up the fact he kept money from folks who sent money to a "maker" with zero evidence of output, as if that related directly to tests he did previously... In fact it was because people trusted those test they sent money to him in the first place... That what he did was wrong changes nothing about the tests themselves. I'd rather see people harp about his use of a cutting board: You know, something relevant...

S30V and all the CPMs have been performing miserably ever since, but apparently users don't notice because they only use the paper sharpness test (or, even more laughably, the shaving test) and visually inspect for visible flaws. Run your nail and you'll see all CPM steels are all exactly the same in that regard: They are, first and foremost, industrial steels pressed into thin-edge knife applications were they don't belong. The '98 or '99 Knives Illustrated test demonstrated this right from the start, Both CPMs, including 3V, being crushed by 440 and D-2 in purpose-built test mules...

Maybe today CPMs are less prone to micro chipping than regular steels, giving the illusion of cutting paper better after X amount of cuts. Maybe the folded apex is amazingly tenacious, and holds on forever while slicing: Who knows? To me it's still a micro-folded apex that will inevitably get worse under chopping.

I get it that chopping is out of fashion, and that batoning is all the rage: Batoning will micro-fold all steels below 20 dps, so of course you can't tell the difference... (And that, unfortunately, tells me you can't tell batoning is nefarious to your edge either, which means few of you use the nail test at all)

All I can say is stop batoning, start chopping (it even helps precision cutting in small tasks, rather than pushing like a madman; try it), rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see that CPMs were always very low-end knife steels to begin with.

Gaston
Click to expand...

But dudeski like how can you say CPMs are industrial use steels pushed into cutlery roles when;

Infact s30v was one of the first steels ever designed with cutlery as its imagined primary use.

Come on, be real guy. Can't you even entertain the possibility your results are not in line with the majority? Are you a bitter inventor of some kind of steel making technology that was supposed to compete with the CPM process?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top