Are the "teething problems" of S30V and S35VN gone?

[Steel130]

3v has become my favorite steel as well, and that's a tough crown to wear because I am a demanding knife user who analyzes everything.

I concur with this. 3V and it's bretheren Cruwear and Z-Wear are, at the moment, my favorite steels for an abundance of reasons.

 

[stabman]

That is NOT the test I was talking about. The test I was talking about was around 1999 and included 440C and a sample of INFI, and there was only two CPM steels involved. It was the first independent test to ever include INFI and any CPM steels: CPM 3V and maybe SS100...

That this is not resolved, and that people claim I am actually making this up, shows what memories here are like...:

The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston

So, your proof that modern steels are bad, and that you have a good memory, is a magazine article that no one--including you--has, and that you are not 100% positive of which magazine it actually was in?

You really need to look up what constitutes proof, because you are not presenting any.

 

[stabman]

Today's Knife of the Day was one with S30V steel.
It is from about 2005...the knife did not explode, nor was there any micro-folding of the edge.

It behaved as if the steel was made of...steel.

 

[James Y]

AFAIK S30V arrived about 2003, and S35VN a few years later. Not seeing too much relevance in the alleged test/article from about '99. At least 'til it can be produced for perusal.

S30V was started in 2001. I have a 2002 large Regular Sebenza in S30V. S35VN came along in 2009. Still, neither steel would have been mentioned in any article from 1999, and unlike his claim, all CPM steels are not the same. So yes, any article from '98 or '99 would indeed be irrelevant to S30V/S35VN.

Jim

 

[Steel130]

Dug this up and thought it would be quite relavent to this discussion. It is an article by Phil Wilson from an issue of Blade magazine in 2002. If you don't know who Phil is. He is one of the Godfathers of heatreating and metallurgy.

“CPM S30V: Best All-Purpose Workhorse Stainless?

By Phil Wilson

Part 1 of 2.

The new Crucible CPM S30V – what might also be called “stainless CPM 3V” – is now a reality. The first production melt was rolled and ready for distribution this past Nov. 1. The best way to characterize the new steel from Crucible is to quote direct from the company’s preliminary data sheet:

"CPM S30V is a martensitic stainless steel specially balanced to insure the formation of vanadium carbides for high wear resistance properties. CPM S30V also offers substantial improvements in toughness over other high hardness materials such as 440C and D2. Corrosion resistance is equal to or better than 440C in various corrosive environments.

Typical applications [for S30V include] Long-Wearing Specialty Cutlery, Plastic Injection and Extrusion Feed Screws, Non-Return Valve Components, Pelletizing Equipment, Wear Components for Food and Chemical Processing."

As noted in my story, “Breakthrough! Steel Specifically For Knives,” introducing S30V in the April BLADE, I was able to obtain some of the new steel and work with it. I also have received limited feedback from others who have used it. The early impressions that follow aren’t based on laboratory results but on past experience with other stainless blade materials. The observations are offered here to characterize a new material and to assist others who may want to use S30V for either handmade or factory knives. At this writing, Crucible hasn’t finalized testing and the data sheet information is still preliminary.

Christmas In November
I had a standing order for the first S30V and received some stock this past Nov. 5. It was like Christmas in November for this knifemaker! The day I received it I ground a 9” fillet blade from it, heat treated it and had a completed knife to work with the day after.

I chose to make a fillet knife because, in my opinion, it has the hardest work life of any knife. Use around salt water will reveal a fillet blades’ ability to resist corrosion in a short time. Edge holding is tested quickly when cutting through scales and bones and working against an abrasive cutting board. A fillet knife must have a thin, flexible blade to ride over the rib bones during the fillet cut. A brittle steel will soon chip out or break under such use. A fillet knife also makes a very handy kitchen blade. It’s a natural for boning a chicken breast, slicing prime rib, or filleting out a grapefruit. Kitchen knives are left wet on the counter and bounced around in a drawer with other utensils, which is another pretty severe test for a new steel.

In addition to the fillet knife, I made a simple slab-handle semi skinner with the new S30V, and two other [nearly identical] knives from CPM S90V and 3V. This effort would give me a fresh comparison on the heat treating, grinding and finishing of all three steels. It would allow me to do some cutting and edge-holding tests against the new grade. Does the new S30V meet the challenges? The answer is yes, and I’m willing to bet that it will be the favorite steel of many knifemakers in a short time.

Before going into details on how my S30V blades performed, let’s review what the expectations were:

* edge holding on a level with or better than 154CM/ATS-34 or D2 at the same hardness;

* a true stainlesss steel with good-to-excellent corrosion resistance on par with 440C or 154CM;

* bending strength and impact toughness that are improvements over ATS-34/154CM and D2, hopefully approaching A2;

* straightforward heat treating that can be done in a furnace without special controls or an ultra-high heat capacity;

* a particle metallurgy steel with a balanced amount of vanadium carbide to provide edge wear resistance without causing significant finishing difficulties, and…

* good availability in knife blade thicknesses and reasonable cost.

Edge Holding
Edge holding will be proportional to hardness to a large degree. Experience with CPM 10V, S90V, and 3V showed me that, with a particle-based steel, the hardness can be pushed a little higher up the Rockwell scale and still retain enough toughness to prevent edge chipping. (CPM S60V is the exception; it has it’s best qualities at about Rc56.) This is because the particle-metallurgy-based steels have a very fine grain structure.

Given this, I opted for Rc61 for the firt S30V test knife. At Rc61, S30V does as well or slightly better than 154CM or ATS-34 at the same hardness. It has the same aggressive cutting nature as 3V. I call this carbide contrast. The softer steel matrix against the much harder carbides provides a toothed profile at the cutting edge as soon as a little bit of wear takes place. Steels with a higher precentage of carbides, such as 10V and S90V, have less initial grab in the cutting medium. They will, however, reach a plateau and cut for a long time at about the same sharpness.

Corrosion Resistance
The corrosion resistance of S30V is excellent. I purposely left the fillet knife uncleaned and covered with a combination of fish slime, salt water and blood in the back of my truck camper shell overnight in a damp coastal environment. There was no evidence of corrosion or pitting the next day. The blade cleaned up like new. The same thing would be true of 154Cm and ATS-34 in my experience. By comparison, D2, 3V, and 10V – all of which have some percentage of chromium – would have shown evidene of corrosion. Steels such as 1095, 52100 and O-1, all of which have little or no chromium, would be badly rusted and pitted. In addition to the fishing-trip corrosion test, I cut up a grapefruit and left the uncleaned knife on the cutting board overnight. Again, there was no evidence of corrosion on the blade surface.”

In the conclusion next issue, the author outlines how the CPM S30V blade performs in bending strength, impact toughness, ease of heat treating and wear resistance, and gauges it on availability and cost.

[sidebar from this article]
Test Specs
The cutting and edge-holding tests were done by comparing knives of similar sha]=pe and edge geometry, and by using the same sharpening techniques. The cutting medium was half-inch manila rope. I’ll be the first to admit that rope cutting is not an exact science. Small differences in cutting ability are very hard to detect but, after some practice and by being very careful to be consistent from knife to knife, larger differences are detectable. I use the “Wayne Goddard Method” – that is, all cutting is done on the same batch of rope, cutting is done on a scale and force is limited to 20 pounds, [and test blades of nearly identical shape, grind, and final sharpened edge are utilized. –RDA] A slicing motion is used rather than a push cut. I judge a blade to be dull when it starts to slide at the bottom of the cut against the back-up board. After a lot of practice, one can predict after the first couple of cuts how well the blade is going to do. I’ve heard all the wisecracks, including, “That’s all nice but I’ve never had to skin or fillet a rope.” Manila rope, however, is a prett good substitute material for deer or elk hair, and is probably closer to wild pig skin embedded with dirt. – by Phil Wilson

 

[Steel130]

Part two can be found on Phil's website, to save from a wall of too much text I will just link that.

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles.htm

 

[bhyde]

That is NOT the test I was talking about. The test I was talking about was around 1999 and included 440C and a sample of INFI, and there was only two CPM steels involved. It was the first independent test to ever include INFI and any CPM steels: CPM 3V and maybe SS100...

That this is not resolved, and that people claim I am actually making this up, shows what memories here are like...:

The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston

Your information is neither timely nor from a scholarly source (its up to you to provide the source- hearsay and your memory are not sources).
Repeating from your memory and from an article that is ~18yrs old doesn't mean that old information cannot be replaced with new information invalidating the original testing. Continuing to repeat this over and over without citation of which magazine, which article just serves to discredit your position.

 

[hexenjager]

That is NOT the test I was talking about. The test I was talking about was around 1999 and included 440C and a sample of INFI, and there was only two CPM steels involved. It was the first independent test to ever include INFI and any CPM steels: CPM 3V and maybe SS100...

That this is not resolved, and that people claim I am actually making this up, shows what memories here are like...:

The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston

To be blunt, Blade Forums is probably the single most likely place in the world to find the highest concentration of people who read every 98 and 99 issue of Knives Illustrated cover to cover. Despite this, nobody else has ever claimed to remember The Test despite how monumental (and therefore memorable to a knife enthusiast) such a test result would have been. I personally find that very, very strange and more than a little suspicious. I doubt very much that I'm the only one. Perhaps it's time to stop citing The Test until you can provide it to be read by the people you keep bringing it up to.

 

[The Mastiff]

"The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston"

I have no idea what you are talking about "steered me away" . I am curious about something though. Can you find any post of yours anywhere here at BF where you admitted to being wrong about something? If you found the article and it was not what you remember it to be could you come here and admit to being wrong?

I've been saying for about 3 years you should stop posting these results as facts until you can prove it. People coming here to learn deserve better.

Joe

 

[RevDevil]

"The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston"

I have no idea what you are talking about "steered me away" . I am curious about something though. Can you find any post of yours anywhere here at BF where you admitted to being wrong about something? If you found the article and it was not what you remember it to be could you come here and admit to being wrong?

I've been saying for about 3 years you should stop posting these results as facts until you can prove it. People coming here to learn deserve better.

Joe

Thank you Joe, I could not have said it better myself.

 

[Mo2]

That is NOT the test I was talking about. The test I was talking about was around 1999 and included 440C and a sample of INFI, and there was only two CPM steels involved. It was the first independent test to ever include INFI and any CPM steels: CPM 3V and maybe SS100...

That this is not resolved, and that people claim I am actually making this up, shows what memories here are like...:

The magazine I'm pretty sure was Knives Illustrated, and you keep bringing up the same irrelevant trash time after time. I wonder if you are not the guy who steered me away from it...

Gaston

Prove it or gtfo

 

[microtech85]

In my experience, the powder steels do everything better than 440c. 440c also started out as a steel for industry. However, s30v and s35vn were tailor made for knives. Also, 440c does not get heat treated as high as the cpm steels. Between to exact knives one with 440c at 58 and one with s30v at 59.5, the 440c will roll first, not the s30v. 440c has a coarse grain structure so it also falls behind in thoughness too, so i just dont see how someone can say 440c is better when it does not have a single attribute that will outperform powder steels of quality.

 

[GatorFlash1]

S30V and, to a lesser extent, S35VN seem to be becoming standard blade material in medium-high end American-manufactured knives. Their first several years had way too many users describing problems of edges being brittle or not wearing well.

Am I accurate to write that the problems are essentially gone, that Crucible Steel's claims for these knife steels are now achieved?

I'm sure there are slight differences depending on the maker but I like them even though I EDC an M4 steel folder (Spyder Gayle Bradley). If you want to see them cut watch this video -

Cutters, both.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

In my experience, the powder steels do everything better than 440c. 440c also started out as a steel for industry. However, s30v and s35vn were tailor made for knives. Also, 440c does not get heat treated as high as the cpm steels. Between to exact knives one with 440c at 58 and one with s30v at 59.5, the 440c will roll first, not the s30v. 440c has a coarse grain structure so it also falls behind in thoughness too, so i just dont see how someone can say 440c is better when it does not have a single attribute that will outperform powder steels of quality.

It all depends on whom the Maker is, I personally have my 440c, Cpm-154, Cpn-30 & 35 all HTed to 60 RC & Cryogenic treated by PAUL Bos HTing in house for Buck Knives. .... at that RC 440c works great as a culinary steel, while the CPM steels do hold their edge a bit better at the same RC, The large Carbides in 440c do keep cutting nicely .., Gaston, if you don’t have a link to this test, “And I know you don’t “ kindly SHUT IT!

 

[microtech85]

To Rhino knives. I do not doubt 440c's value in a quality knife and it is not my intention to put down any knife made from it and i would have no hesitation buying a quality knife made from the steel myself. As i understand it, 440c has a value on collectors knives for taking a nice polish. my intention with my post was to call into question certain claims that 440c is superior to powder steels. So all in all, i say 440c is a good steel in its own right, but a steel like s35vn is just superior in almost all attributes. that quality heat treat is so important.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

To Rhino knives. I do not doubt 440c's value in a quality knife and it is not my intention to put down any knife made from it and i would have no hesitation buying a quality knife made from the steel myself. As i understand it, 440c has a value on collectors knives for taking a nice polish. my intention with my post was to call into question certain claims that 440c is superior to powder steels. So all in all, i say 440c is a good steel in its own right, but a steel like s35vn is just superior in almost all attributes. that quality heat treat is so important.

You are correct in that S35 properly HTed will out preform properly HTed 440C .. in my experience as a maker using both steels, the vast majority of people could NOT tell the Diff! YMMV? And last but certainly not least , Gasbag boy! Has no idea what the hell he is talking about !

 

[Gaston444]

The library of Congress doesn't hold 1998-2000 issues of Knives Illustrated.
There is a list of other libraries holding some runs of the title (including the National Library in Iceland!), and I will contact them.
Since the publication is still active, I will try them as well. Not much else to be done. I doubt it is "Blade", but may have to try them down the road.

Gaston

 

[miso2]

According to Crucibles, and as said by other members, S30V was released in 2001.

(From their web site)
2001 - Developed stainless tool steel CPM® S30V® for applications requiring improved corrosion and wear resistance.

So any test results before this time point would be either very preliminary (with the steel under development) or non-existent, I guess.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

The library of Congress doesn't hold 1998-2000 issues of Knives Illustrated.
There is a list of other libraries holding some runs of the title (including the National Library in Iceland!), and I will contact them.
Since the publication is still active, I will try them as well. Not much else to be done. I doubt it is "Blade", but may have to try them down the road.

Gaston

You do that, Gaston. Do it for the sake of the knife industry, we need a new hero

 

[craytab]

The library of Congress doesn't hold 1998-2000 issues of Knives Illustrated.
There is a list of other libraries holding some runs of the title (including the National Library in Iceland!), and I will contact them.
Since the publication is still active, I will try them as well. Not much else to be done. I doubt it is "Blade", but may have to try them down the road.

Gaston

You don't even know what magazine it was or when it was published and it is nearly 20 years ago.

So I will again warn new members that this person is not a trustworthy source of information. Do yourself a favor and ignore him.