Are we our own worst enemy?

[LarryM]

The thread is "are we our own worst enemy."

Yes you are.

The constant drumming on profit.

The constant denigration of the "collector for fun."

This puts off the...let us say "not-for-profit" collectors.

And you "profiteers" need the "not-for-profit" collectors. The "not-for-profit" collectors help make things "hot" and it's "hot" knives and makers that help you maximize profit and bring in the big score.

I cook for fun, not for profit. I collect knives for fun, not for profit. You are welcome to your concept of a not-for-loss knife collecting strategy, but is that all you ever think of? This attitude turns off those who collect for fun. Don't you ever buy a less than perfect knife from a less than well-known maker because you just like the piece? Do you ever buy from an a-hole because his work speaks louder than his personality? That's collecting for fun and for the appreciation of the craft.

I tend to read more than I post. But I do agree with most of what Brownshoe posted.
My purchases fall into the buy what I like. Larry


My Customs ,,,,
Lee Williams (4), Jason Cutter (3), Ed Caffrey (1), Jerry Halfrich (1), Ohta (1), John W. Smith (1) , Eddie Baca (3), Tom Krein (1) , DMKnives (1), Derek Goodson (1).

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Larry,

You probably have several more custom knives than Brownshoe does.

I hope you understand that most custom knife buyers buy what they like.

Even though I sell knives or a living, I still buy what I like!

The problem with Brownshoe is that no matter what the subject, he offers a contrarian view for no other reason than to annoy people.

I for one have no problem with people buying what they like. Just don't show up at my table or call me and try to sell me a knife that there is no market for. Then when I decline call me every name in the book...yes it has happened numerous times.

This is why I say, you don't get it both ways. You can't say I buy only what I like and then complain if there is little or no interest when you go to sell your knives.

WWG

 

[Kohai999]

Are we are own worst enemy? Has all the discussion about profit, investment, "homework", buying right etc etc. been putting off new entrants into the field?

Very well could putting off to some possible new entrants, Stephen. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

It is easy to buy a knife, depending upon the knife.

It is not necessarily easy to be a serious knife collector. Nor should it be....and our frank and honest discussions may very well weed out some folks that have no business mucking around in this avenue of collecting. That is for those individuals themselves to decide. They do have a wealth of knowledge and information at their disposal, easily.....which in my early collecting days was only transmitted in books, magazines, telephone calls, and most importantly, shows and hammer-ins.

..... What needs to be stressed is the fact that both Making and collecting boil down to the fact that its fun. If I never sold another knife I would still be making them. If you get wrapped around the axle about the money, profit, or resale, then I think your missing the whole point. If you like it, make it/buy it. If you don't, then don't let someone else's opinion prevent you from doing so. There will always be the "tiers" of both collectors and makers. And there is room for all of them within our community.

Collecting IS fun, but like making, it is also stressful, time consuming, and gets expensive quickly. If you are playing with "scared money" it gets very stressful quickly. If you lose money the first couple transactions you do, and did not expect to.....it gets very not fun quickly. Ed, from where I sit, your attitude is much better suited to making than collecting.

I cook for a living...I make money at it.

Do you cook? Maybe as a hobby? Do you make money at it?

If not, I certainly expect you to feel like you're not 'doing your homework' or 'investing the time necessary' to realize a profit from your hobby.


....or is it that you just enjoy it?

-Michael
profit-challenged knife enthusiast

Michael, I have cooked professionally, and continue to cook as an amateur. It is a lot of fun, and can be a hobby for many.

It is not collecting. Many serious collectors, in all disciplines, are aware of value, and tend to go towards that as an element of the fun of collecting. You don't have to, no one does....but paying attention to value is one of the things that allows you to stay collecting.

I have seen national averages that state a collector is involved in their hobby for 7 years. I am going on 22 years, and hope to do it until I die...how about you?

I think what the posts in Customs on BladeForums does is cut down the time and duration of the learning curve, and exposes a lot of potential collectors to discussions and information that are/is generally the province of experienced, knowledgeable collectors, formerly exchanged in private....I'd like to think that is a good thing. I know many of us are not going to stop thinking the way we think or discussing what we discuss...but if it is too "pointed" for the masses, we can change the dynamic. It might be a bit more boring, and it certainly would not be the whole truth.

Would that bring in more new collectors? And if that was the case, would it be a good thing, and would they stay active?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Guru says the most successful collectors are the ones with the greatest amount of patience...

 

[bluejaunte]

I have to go with brownshoe and Larry M. on this one.

I submit that if your collecting is done with a focus on value, your hobby isn't knife collecting. It's making money. You're using knives as a vehicle for that hobby.

FWIW, yes, I've lost and made money on the few custom knives I've actually let go. I think to date I'm a bit above break-even, but that is due only to dumb luck.

 

[Kohai999]

I have to go with brownshoe and Larry M. on this one.

I submit that if your collecting is done with a focus on value, your hobby isn't knife collecting. It's making money. You're using knives as a vehicle for that hobby.

FWIW, yes, I've lost and made money on the few custom knives I've actually let go. I think to date I'm a bit above break-even, but that is due only to dumb luck.

The FOCUS is not on value...the focus is on getting great knives from excellent makers. Value is a component of the enjoyment, it is not the focus.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Charles M]

STeven I would go even further. Value is one of the main components to consider when collecting customs. If you go by the piece/maker/price rule of thumb, it's in the top three

That is to say what brings more enjoyment, buying what you like for a premium or getting a great deal on that same knife?

 

[Kohai999]

......Value is one of the main components to consider when collecting customs. If you go by the piece/maker/price rule of thumb, it's in the top three

That is to say what do you enjoy more, purchasing a piece you love for a premium or getting a great deal on that same knife?

It can be.....it is to me...it is to Kevin....maybe Anthony, definitely Danbo and Peter Gill....there are many others, but I cannot speak for them.

I like/love a good deal...but am not immune to that special piece....A few years ago it was Don Fogg bowie at a bit of a premium.....but it was worth it, both in real cash value, and emotional value. I think everyone has a few of those, but it is obviously important to pay attention to financial value.

Both Kevin and I place value/price in the third slot after piece and maker, or whatever, it is there, but I think that illustrates the relative position of importance.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Keith Montgomery]

If it's not important that you get good value in the knives you purchase, then it is my opinion that you're going about your purchasing in the wrong way.

 

[shaldag]

The thread is "are we our own worst enemy."

Yes you are.

The constant drumming on profit.

The constant denigration of the "collector for fun."

My idea of knife collecting, or accumulation, differs somewhat form that of Kohai, WWG, and some of the other experienced collectors out there. However, we do manage to feel that we can sit at the same table, because we do have fun with our hobby, or passion, or whatever you want to call it. Having an eye for a good deal or possible profit now or down the line does not denigrate from the fun at all.

How do I know? Because all of those guys can continue to do their collecting without an antagonism toward knifemakers and other collectors. As pointed out in previous posts, Brownshoe has managed to insult Sal Glesser (of all people), and his recent comments to Kevin Wilkins were beyond disgusting.

I think that most of the people collecting knives have a lot more fund doing so than does Brownshoe, who claims to "collect for fun". If his views on makers were not enough, note his views on his fellow collectors:

Collectors are not honorable. They are motivated by lust and if they are collector/dealers, they are motivated by lust and greed. Both are "sins" in most religions.

As I posted previously, we are not our own worst enemies.
Case in point: WWG.
As far as I know, he makes a living as a knife purveyor.
In other words, he a t least paritally does this to put food on the table.
And yet, how many of us have benefitted from the advice he has given?
Given at no cost, that is. To people that he has never met.

Forums like this allow for the dissemination of information that is very useful to people just starting out. With the good information comes the bad, you have to filter the signal from the noise. And Brownshoe is definately noise.

 

[Chefget]

Hi Steven,

Well, I joined BF in 1998, so you know I've passed the 7 year mark...

Value is great. I love increasing the value of my collection. Part of the fun! And certainly a forum like ours, the acquisition of knowledge and the building of confidence in our collecting is a grand part of the big picture...many of us couldn't have gotten to where we are now without it.

But even a Newbie like me can see that an over-emphasis on investment value and return can be off-putting to those that approach our hobby from the facet of liking knives and wanting more After all, appreciation of quality and the thrill of handling fine knives is much more enjoyable without the spector of profitability looming over each transaction...

And in the long run I'm pretty confident that this hobby, which has given me so much, will cost much, much less than most of my colleages pasttimes!

And Steven, think how cooking would change for both you and I if each time we went to market, or approached the stove, ultimate profitability was the driving concern...

-Michael

 

[Kohai999]

And Steven, think how cooking would change for both you and I if each time we went to market, or approached the stove, ultimate profitability was the driving concern...

-Michael

Michael....don't even get me started about profitability and restauranteurs. How many times has the front dictated "shave an ounce of here or there" to the kitchen?

Frankly, it was many arguments and fights with staff about food quality and portion size that drove me off of persuing professional kitchen work as a long term career.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Chefget]

Hi Steven,

That is why I arguably have the best position on the East Coast...in 6 years, food costs have *never* been an issue, as only the quality of what hits the plate is important...and it's worked out quite well

But an excellent point shown by your experience!

It certainly takes the fun out of it to focus on cost/return, and that can not only drive away the uninitiated, but increase the attrition rate of collectors due to them moving on to things more enjoyable.

-Michael
I get to use my knives everyday!

 

[brownshoe]

Once again boys, thanks for keeping me humble.

If you are a responsible person and only collect knives with your truly disposable income, rather than say gamble, you may care more about what floats your boat than what will resell. If you have a busy active life, and selling knives doesn't float your boat, maybe you don't want and don't need to sell your collection. The last knife I didn't want anymore I gave away.

Interesting, the "not-for-profit" collector has to prove he really is a "collector." If I judged Mr. Kohoia999 by the number of knives he actually shows pictures of, rather than claims to own, I'd say he was a pretty minor collector. I got my first custom knife as a teenager in the 20th century. I've been to 5 shows in the last 2 years spanning Nevada to Pennsylvania. Is that good enough...can I still play, or will you take the ball and go home? In my world bragging about your possessions is not proper.

I also collect art, but for fun and not resale. Funny how art collectors aren't so worried about after market value. Maybe an obsession with that concept for knives is an abberation related to this sub-forum.

One thing I appreciate about WWG is I know if I buy a knife from him and from the makers he advertises, I will be paying full market value. This was certainly in evidence at his table at this year's Arkansas show. I almost bought one to put away to see if I'd get a refund upon return in 5 years. However, the price garunentee was not offered to me or others at his table. Maybe it was posted and I missed it. I loved listening to him "educate" those around him and seeing a new knifemaker drawn to the flame. Kind of like a high powered version of the guy at the state fair selling knives. Wish I had his sales skills. I also really admire his marketing skills and how he manipulates the print media with interviews and articles, manipulate, oh sorry,...educates customers with his seminars and his comments here. Of course, it's his business not his hobby, but still his passion. I'll bet WWG still owns a few knives that he loves but have dropped in value.

 

[ptgdvc]

The FOCUS is not on value...the focus is on getting great knives from excellent makers. Value is a component of the enjoyment, it is not the focus.

STeven Garsson

Exactly!

When you concentrate on buying the best examples, from the best makers, at realistic prices, the value component falls in to place almost by itself. The crucial issues (to me) are deciding, whose work to collect, which examples are their best and what is fair price. Where have I heard this before??? It is just like deja vu, all over again.

This of course is a continuous evolving process, which requires study and thought, some would define this as work, others find it to be a highly
enjoyable part of collecting. If you enjoy it, chances are that your collection will be higher in quality AND higher in value.

P



P

 

[shaldag]

Interesting, the "not-for-profit" collector has to prove he really is a "collector." If I judged Mr. Kohoia999 by the number of knives he actually shows pictures of, rather than claims to own, I'd say he was a pretty minor collector. I got my first custom knife as a teenager in the 20th century. I've been to 5 shows in the last 2 years spanning Nevada to Pennsylvania. Is that good enough...can I still play, or will you take the ball and go home? In my world bragging about your possessions is not proper.

You still don't get it. Nobody has to prove anything about the number of knives in their collection. When people post the kind of opinions that you post, and engage in the type of insulting behavior that you indulge in, it is simply difficult for everyone else to believe that you are actually enjoying yourself. After all, why would anyone indulge in a hobby that requires them to hang out with unpleasant people?

One thing I appreciate about WWG...... Wish I had his sales skills. I also really admire his marketing skills and how he manipulates the print media with interviews and articles, manipulate, oh sorry,...educates customers with his seminars and his comments here. Of course, it's his business not his hobby, but still his passion.

I would not know about WWG's sales skills, as I have never bought anything from him. Nor have I met him. However, I have benefitted from his advice, when I chose to take it.

On the other hand, you are indulging in exactly that type of behavior that makes me wonder why you do this?

"manipulate, oh sorry,...educates customers"
"manipulates the print media with interviews and articles"

Gee, I am sure glad that you are here to set me and the rest of easily-manipulated sheep straight--otherwise, we would still be under the mesmeric influence of that evil genius, Blofeld-- I mean WWG....

 

[ptgdvc]

Gee, I am sure glad that you are here to set me and the rest of easily-manipulated sheep straight--otherwise, we would still be under the mesmeric influence of that evil genius, Blofeld-- I mean WWG....

Come to think of it I have never seen WWG and Ernst Blofeld inthe same room or Les Robertson and George Soros for that matter..... you may be on to something.

P

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I am a "like the knives and want more" kind of collector, and I have never been put off by the discussion of the investment part of collecting. there is only so much that can be said about collecting for fun. To me it would be become boring if that was the only focus of this forum. In fact, it would be boring if it was only the main focus of this forum. Although, learning about making the right purchasing decisions is fun to me. So I guess that everything we go over does pertain to the fun of knife collecting. Learning about making choices that will keep me from losing a lot of money when I sell my knives is to me very enjoyable.

 

[Les Robertson]

Browshoe,

Prepare to be "humbled" again.

I almost bought one to put away to see if I'd get a refund upon return in 5 years.

You obviously have not read or if you did, are not able to grasp the "TRADE IN POLICY." There is no "REFUND" policy.

However, the price guarantee was not offered to me or others at his table. Maybe it was posted and I missed it.

You obviously have not read or if you did, are not able to grasp the "TRADE IN POLICY." There is not PRICE GUARANTEE.

I understand you may not be aware that you have to pay to have a table at a knife show.

Arkansas: $200

Blade Show: $450

Either New York Show: $700

These are just examples. However you can see the fees for each table. Consequently, to "waste space" with something that cannot be sold is a waste of space.

As for my "TRADE IN POLICY", you only had to ask. Had you asked you would have been able to eliminate part of your post that showed you really didn't know what you were talking about.

I also really admire his marketing skills and how he manipulates the print media with interviews and articles, manipulate, oh sorry,...educates customers with his seminars and his comments here.

Brownshoe what is stopping you from writing articles, being interviewed or doing seminars? If you feel my comments are merely attempts at "Market Manipulation" why don't you counter what I have to say with the "Truth?"

A good start would be to write something with a positive input.

Actually I have 23 knives in my collection. All are worth substantially more than I paid for them. Many were from collections that I bought. Buying 5 and selling 4...which paid for the 5th one.

WWG

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Shaldaq

Case in point: WWG.
As far as I know, he makes a living as a knife purveyor.
In other words, he a t least paritally does this to put food on the table.
And yet, how many of us have benefitted from the advice he has given?
Given at no cost, that is. To people that he has never met.

Thank you. As I have stated numerous times before I had Paul Bausch spend time with me when I was a new collector. As a he was a full time custom knife dealer I understood that he knew, by virtue of his profession, more about custom knives than I did.

I thought what he did was an invaluable service to the custom knife market in general and collectors specifically.

WWG