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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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Are you over Super Steels?
- Thread starter bobnery
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BluntCut MetalWorks
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Elmax got a major ripple - apex sagged about 15um, bevel dent (darken area - where light reflected away from receiver) over 140um height.
While 52100 suffered ~8um apex sagged and bevel dented to around 35um height away from apex.
While 52100 suffered ~8um apex sagged and bevel dented to around 35um height away from apex.
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BluntCut MetalWorks
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Actually, it's much easier to SQ high Cr steel than low Cr high carbon steels. For all steels the hardest part is ensuring a uniform dimensional changes in crystal phase. SS usually have lower dimensional changes between phases.
I have try quenching D2 with park50 before and its cracked... I would love to know how you quench those high Cr steel with brine without any problem.
BluntCut MetalWorks
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SQ is 3 seconds quench, where brine is 5 seconds, p50 around 7 seconds. Refrain myself from OTing...
Super quench is to quench in high concentrate brine mix with surfactant isn't it?
BluntCut MetalWorks
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SQ formula:
5 gallons water
5 lbs salt
28oz bottle of Dawn blue dish washing detergent
8oz bottle of JetDry or other rinse aid.
5 gallons water
5 lbs salt
28oz bottle of Dawn blue dish washing detergent
8oz bottle of JetDry or other rinse aid.
bodog
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I'm not comparing 52100 from bluntcut with anything, I'm just showing it on its own. Here is one of his knives that I put to some good use over the weekend. I cut a bunch of quadruple ply cardboard, pried open about 8 sealed refrigerator covers, cut up around 5 whole pinapples (highly acidic), probably 40 bananas, popped a bunch of pallet straps, hacked into several pallets, etc. The edge didn't roll, dent, fracture, or anything. After all that the knife still slices printer paper easily. Not because 52100 has the best wear resistance via massive carbide volume, but because the edge apex remained intact, straight, and defined via its strength and toughness. This is directly after quite a bit of use, no touching it up on stones or strops or anything more than cleaning the crap off of the blade. I did use some 2500 grit wet/dry sandpaper on the primary bevel to see how deep the patina was but I didn't use it on the edge.
Here's S30V after much, much less use. I'm talking maybe 10 dirty, double walled boxes cut open and some pallet straps busted. Nothing major at all.
But, being objective here, it does come at a cost. Stain resistance is low. No one ever accused 52100 of being stain resistant, but I do have to say it stains easier than 1095 I've used. On Friday I needed to cut into a can of corned beef, I didn't have anything to wipe the crap off with. It stained within 10 minutes. I sharpened it that night because cutting into the side of any can will at least slightly damage any V edge thin enough to cut well. I also sanded the uneven patina off and forced another patina on the blade.
Sunday is when I was cutting up the boxes and whatnot I referred to earlier. The pineapples and bananas stained the blade even faster than the corned beef. It's not rust, its patina, so it's not terrible, but it came quickly. It doesn't bother me. My coworkers were even impressed with what i was doing with the knife and how it held up and they're not knife nuts like us. They did show concern for the staining, though. When I showed them it wasn't rust a couple of them expressed interest in getting a similar knife. I've not had any non-knife nut friends/co-workers say they wanted something more than their Gerber/smith and Wesson/Winchester knives before and it really is because this knife has taken a good beating over the past week and has performed very, very well, enough to where even non-knife people have noticed. That's pretty rare in my experience.
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bodog
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Would it be good in a folding knife? I don't know, stain resistance is low so people who have used super blue in a spyderco knife or anyone whos used 1095 in a folder would need to speak up and talk about any issues with corrosion problems in a folding knife. The only concern is low stain resistance. Everything else is good to go. I would kind of like to see what bluntcut can do with something like 3V or a low chromium steel with nitrogen in it.
Is 52100 a super steel? I don't know, when treated right it's pretty super for my work. So is Vanadis 4E. I'd kind of like to compare super quenched 52100 from bluntcut to SR101 from Busse.
Is 52100 a super steel? I don't know, when treated right it's pretty super for my work. So is Vanadis 4E. I'd kind of like to compare super quenched 52100 from bluntcut to SR101 from Busse.
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^^^^I calling you out on the edge retention of 52100!!
How much cardboard did you cut? (The rest of the material isn't going to dull 52100, and it's not going to chip it)
52100 does not excel at edge retention through cardboard, which when dirty enough is sand paper......
I am not saying that is has bad edge retention, but it's not going to hold up to cutting A LOT of cardboard.
Certainly not to where it will slice printer paper....
How much cardboard did you cut? (The rest of the material isn't going to dull 52100, and it's not going to chip it)
52100 does not excel at edge retention through cardboard, which when dirty enough is sand paper......
I am not saying that is has bad edge retention, but it's not going to hold up to cutting A LOT of cardboard.
Certainly not to where it will slice printer paper....
bodog
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At least 20 boxes in the morNing session, that was frozen fish. At least 30 boxes in the afternoon session with the fruit. Quadruple ply. About 6" x 6" squares or triangles. Between 3 and 8 cuts per box. If my math is right that's about 300 feet or more cut if the cardboard was separated and laid out straight. I really don't know if 300 feet is a lot and I really don't care that much. It did what I demanded of it and i do know i demanded quite a bit. The cutting media was similar to this with less abrasive and more corrosive stuff inside:
And prying up sealed refrigerator panels absolutely can chip or roll and edge. I referenced the acidic foods because that can degrade an edge as well, but only a little. I didn't say that this steel was the same as 10V in how it wears. I said it maintained it's edge through toughness and strength rather than carbide volume so it absolutely can continue to cut printer paper without tearing it because the edge is intact and even rather than chipping out like higher carbide steels do. The fact that this knife performs like it does is what impresses me because you're right, 52100 doesn't have the reputation of keeping it's edge like that. Maybe it's just not normal for someone to produce a moderately high hardness version of a tough steel with a really fine grain leading to even higher toughness. It's ok that you don't believe it. I'm the one using it and can see what it does and how it behaves.
I've also showed how 2 different blades made of S30V doing somewhat similar work performs. I have nothing to gain or lose by lying. But I don't blame you. I'd be asking the same thing.
Like I said, I haven't touched up the edge at all since all that work. Here's some receipt paper, it's pretty humid right now so the paper is a little damp for whatever that's worth.
And here's some regular printer paper. Draw cuts it easily the length of the blade. It'll still push cuts at the heel of the blade.
It's important to note that a knife retains its cutting ability through one of two ways. Ankerson is a huge proponent of one method, getting massive amounts of carbides at the edge and letting the steel give way to the carbides and letting the carbides do the cutting. That's fine if you want aggressive edges but it doesn't make a really strong knife. The other way is to take a tough, fine grained steel and harden the shit out of it. The edge will resist fracture and deformation. Cliff Stamp is a huge proponent of this. What it appears Luong La, aka bluntcut, is doing is taking a tough, fine grained steel and quenching it so fast that the toughness of the steel is maximized while retained austenite is minimized. Whatever grain growth there may be in the steel during normal heat treatment is reduced as much as he can make it giving the least amount of possibility for there to be weakness in the steel. The fact that he's using a known high quality version of 52100 from Aldo Bruno helps. He can talk more about this.
I see a reason and need for both types of edge retention. For my work needs, the second type fits better because I need a do it all type of knife that can withstand some punishment. If I was skinning a bunch of animals all day or if I only needed to cut cardboard or rope then the first would suit me better. YMMV
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I think it would be great in a folder and would love to have one. I have a bunch of non stainless carbon and alloy steels in folders in steels such as:
Vascowear/CPM Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear
3V
10V
D2
O-1
1065
1075
A lifetime of folders in 1095. Certainly over 25
50-100b/CarbonV/Case CV/1095cv(?)
Super Blue
M2
CPM M4
Whatever else some of my old folders are made of from various manufacturers in different countries.
I grew up using non stainless steels and don't have any problems with them. I don't patina knives and keep them clean. Stainless can rust and so can carbon and alloy steels. I perform maintenance on all my knives that I use and prepare them correctly before storage.
Vascowear/CPM Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear
3V
10V
D2
O-1
1065
1075
A lifetime of folders in 1095. Certainly over 25
50-100b/CarbonV/Case CV/1095cv(?)
Super Blue
M2
CPM M4
Whatever else some of my old folders are made of from various manufacturers in different countries.
I grew up using non stainless steels and don't have any problems with them. I don't patina knives and keep them clean. Stainless can rust and so can carbon and alloy steels. I perform maintenance on all my knives that I use and prepare them correctly before storage.
Depending on what you cut. Can't make absolute claims one way or the other without qualifications, it's much more nuanced than that. I've never seen this "quicker dulling" that you are referring to, but I might not be using it the same way either.
bodog
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True, but people start falling asleep when the real material science discussion starts, not that I'd be the one presenting the information. I don't know enough about it to and I really don't believe people here want to get into these arcane and fairly obscure facts. In my mind people want to see results. What will work for them and their uses. I believe there's a much better alternative for a lot of people that have been let down by some of these weaker steels or by makers that continuously push knives with poor cutting ability. I'm one of them, I know there are a lot more. There are definitely people who want the carbide loaded steels because that's what works for them in their experience. It's cool, we're all part of the knife world. There shouldn't be one camp attacking another, that's crazy. If you use and like highly loaded steels, that's awesome. They're tools meant to work. If a hammer works better for you and a screwdriver works better for me, there should be no argument from either of us. It is what it is. Some guys do dump on others when they need a screwdriver instead of a hammer and that doesn't make sense to me.
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One thing I notice a bunch here is people lust after super thin edges for whatever reason. Some steels do it great and some, super or not don't. Someone thins out 1095 like they can 3V and it's the worst steel ever. You can have a thicker edge and still be razor shaving sharp that has an edge that lasts just as long on a 1095 blade as it does on 3V. It stems from people getting into knives well into adult life who have never had a need for a knife. Of course they go for what they see as the "best" and get 3V. They see a blade they like in 1095 and aren't happy with the thick useful edge and thin it out. They have no clue that's not how it works and use the blade outside it's designed parameters.
Don't care what anyone says, I've used 1095 too long. I can put an edge on any of mine that will rival super steel edge retention under hard use because I know exactly how that steel needs to be sharpened and I avoid super thin paper slicing edges, but they are still razor sharp and can still easily slice after hours of continuous use. I can sharpen AUS8 with a proper heat treat, not that SOG 54-56HRC stuff and 8cr13mov that will destroy a S30V blade in a cardboard cutting test. I've seen several thin S30V blades get eaten up by even 420HC because they were sharpened correctly.
You don't need super steel to get super performance. You just need to not be dumb enough to not thin them out to the point of being outside what the steel itself can handle.
That's just my observations, no laboratory or steel charts to back it up but it works out great in the real world.
bodog
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To be fair I hope one day I can get a knife as thin as a razor blade that can still handle the tasks I demand of it.
Id buy that for a dollar.
Finally something we can agree on.
Japanese steels have already gotten there a long time ago, from blue hitachi 2, to even the most humble MolyD steels from japan are some of the best steels I've ever used. None of those would classify as "super" by the popular market. I'm totally okay with that
The problem is knife makers and marketers have a technology and go looking for a problem to solve.
Ankerson
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Actually you are wrong.
I personally have stated that thin and hard is generally better when it comes to edge retention and my testing backs that up. The thinner the geometry is the higher the HRC hardness needs to be.
Cliff on the other hand more than a few times and argued with me and others more times that I can remember that HRC hardness doesn't matter.
He blew up the Spyderco forum more times that I can count with that freaking BS.
He flip flops around depending on what his current agenda is way too much or depending on which one of his few knife maker buddies he wants to push that week. There aren't many these days so he really pushes them. That or whatever kick he is on that day or whatever argument he can start taking the opposite side and then flip flop to the other side whenever.
That's the reason why he has been banned on every knife forum on the internet except one, he argues just to argue and stir things up, starts conflicts just to start conflicts. That and he tries to tell knife makers how to do what they do, ones that have been making knives for decades arguing with them.