Are you over Super Steels?

[Surfingringo]

Somehow I still feel like the more important question (in regard to steel and knife design) is being overlooked. It is clear that in a certain geometry and at a certain thickness behind the edge, that high carbide steels are "tough enough" for most people's use. I would probably include myself in that category. But what if you want to thin out the geometry? In other words, at some point if you thin the geometry and edge out enough then these steels will chip even without what many term abuse or misuse. At some point, the edge will just be too thin to withstand the given work.

So here's the question which we are not talking about. Are there steels that can handle a given work load with a thinner edge than others? If the answer is yes then what does this mean? Would it mean that we could use a skinner in cruwear with a .006" edge where we would have to grind the same knife in s110v to .010"? (assuming we were trying to achieve the thinnest geometry possible for a certain use without damage) If this were true then might we not be able to grind a tougher steel thinner for higher cutting performance? Even if one had to give up a level of edge retention, I believe many folks might opt for the higher cutting performance.

Ok, this is more of a question/theory than a statement of fact. If we look at it from this perspective though then there is no reason to argue about abuse, misuse or how someone else should be using a knife. At some point an edge will be too thin for even the lightest use so the idea of this line of thinking is how different steels might be used and ground to optimize performance for ANY use, not just for hard use.

Thoughts?

 

[Cobalt]

Bodog, not sure if you are joking but I don't think that Boris Spyderco is fake. I have seen the exact same font on many spydercos here are just a few:

The logo, writing, and choil don't look right. Compare the "S" in spyderco on both knives. That should show what needs to be shown.

And like what they said earlier the way, look at the way the steel broke apart. Zoom on on the photo ans look at the chips along the crack lines. If that's a cpm steel then someone nuked the hell out of it.

Vs this. Now that I look a little closer it doesn't look like it has jimping either.

 

[Surfingringo]

I'm no expert but I would definitely call fake. The font is completely different.

 

[Stays Sharp]

I'm no expert but I would definitely call fake. The font is completely different.

Funny, I didn't notice anyone mention the font but the pics shared by Cobalt even make it more clear that it MAY be fake. Take a good look... The spacing between letters is off.

 

[B34NS]

Bodog, not sure if you are joking but I don't think that Boris Spyderco is fake. I have seen the exact same font on many spydercos here are just a few:

I would normally be inclined to agree, although the almost ligature-like spacing of the "CO" and style of the font is a dead giveaway. The C's are wrong, and you'd think something probably made in china would at least get that right.

A real one, not mine, from early 2012:

I couldn't imagine spyderco jeapordizing their brand rights and consistency for a font change on one model.

I just think of those Cabela's retunree scams that people fall victim to. Why I say take it out of the box before you buy it.

 

[Skywalker31]

Somehow I still feel like the more important question (in regard to steel and knife design) is being overlooked. It is clear that in a certain geometry and at a certain thickness behind the edge, that high carbide steels are "tough enough" for most people's use. I would probably include myself in that category. But what if you want to thin out the geometry? In other words, at some point if you thin the geometry and edge out enough then these steels will chip even without what many term abuse or misuse. At some point, the edge will just be too thin to withstand the given work.

So here's the question which we are not talking about. Are there steels that can handle a given work load with a thinner edge than others? If the answer is yes then what does this mean? Would it mean that we could use a skinner in cruwear with a .006" edge where we would have to grind the same knife in s110v to .010"? (assuming we were trying to achieve the thinnest geometry possible for a certain use without damage) If this were true then might we not be able to grind a tougher steel thinner for higher cutting performance? Even if one had to give up a level of edge retention, I believe many folks might opt for the higher cutting performance.

Ok, this is more of a question/theory than a statement of fact. If we look at it from this perspective though then there is no reason to argue about abuse, misuse or how someone else should be using a knife. At some point an edge will be too thin for even the lightest use so the idea of this line of thinking is how different steels might be used and ground to optimize performance for ANY use, not just for hard use.

Thoughts?

Emphasis added - this has actually happened before in a production knife, and there were multiple reports from different kinds of use by different folks.

The Spyderco Nilakka uses 4.5mm CPM S30V blade stock with (originally) a zero-ground edge. There was all sorts of edge damage from different kinds of moderate use. They ended up going back and putting 40 degree microbevels on them if I recall correctly - and that fixed most of the problems.

If that's not an example of what happens when you thin out the geometry on high-carbide steels too much, I don't know what is. Might be worth going back and digging up some of those threads to see what people were doing to damage them and then to fix them up again.

 

[Cobalt]

Interesting. I am amazed that people create fakes of a $50-$100 knife.

 

[Skywalker31]

Nilakka apparently started off at 10 degrees inclusive and was microbeveled to 30, not 40 degrees. Some old threads here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...kka-Couple-Observations-and-a-Potential-Issue

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1000644-WARNING-Pekko-Nilakka-Folder!!!!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1046623-Nilakka-re-grind-re-release

Might be a few more over on Spyderco's hosted forums; didn't look that far myself.

 

[B34NS]

Interesting. I am amazed that people create fakes of a $50-$100 knife.

You and me both, although for them to produce it's probably only a buck or two at cost for them to produce compared to the overhead a legitimate company like spyderco has to contend with. Especially leaving out the money spent on R&D that the faker didn't have to put up.

 

[bodog]

Pretty much common sense, so why did you have to spell that out for me? Was it that big of a revelation for you when you figured this out?

You need to understand something... I'm not part of the S30v defense team lmao and I was not saying anything bad about 8Cr.

Nah man, not a jab at you or what you said. I was just saying that maybe spyderco and Kershaw do better with 8cr than chinese companies who pump out fakes to anyone who thought they shouldn't buy an 8cr knife based on that picture from boris.

 

[bodog]

Nilakka apparently started off at 10 degrees inclusive and was microbeveled to 30, not 40 degrees. Some old threads here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...kka-Couple-Observations-and-a-Potential-Issue

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1000644-WARNING-Pekko-Nilakka-Folder!!!!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1046623-Nilakka-re-grind-re-release

Might be a few more over on Spyderco's hosted forums; didn't look that far myself.

I wonder if the nilakka would've done better with a steel like 3V or 4V instead of S30V. I'd put money on yes.

 

[Skywalker31]

I wonder if the nilakka would've done better with a steel like 3V or 4V instead of S30V. I'd put money on yes.

A lot of people at the time were saying that maybe something like the O1 used in the bushcrafter would've done better.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Edge: left section = as-sharpened. right section=after whittled rib bone.

:yawn: stuff?

 

[bodog]

Edge: left section = as-sharpened. right section=after whittled rib bone.

:yawn: stuff?

Am I seeing this right? Being as close up as what it is it looks like there's not much damage. Do you have 52100 photos?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Interesting. I am amazed that people create fakes of a $50-$100 knife.

Heck, there are plenty of fakes of $30-50 Buck knives and even some fakes of knives that are made by Sanrenmu and others.

 

[sodak]

Somehow I still feel like the more important question (in regard to steel and knife design) is being overlooked. It is clear that in a certain geometry and at a certain thickness behind the edge, that high carbide steels are "tough enough" for most people's use. I would probably include myself in that category. But what if you want to thin out the geometry? In other words, at some point if you thin the geometry and edge out enough then these steels will chip even without what many term abuse or misuse. At some point, the edge will just be too thin to withstand the given work.

So here's the question which we are not talking about. Are there steels that can handle a given work load with a thinner edge than others? If the answer is yes then what does this mean? Would it mean that we could use a skinner in cruwear with a .006" edge where we would have to grind the same knife in s110v to .010"? (assuming we were trying to achieve the thinnest geometry possible for a certain use without damage) If this were true then might we not be able to grind a tougher steel thinner for higher cutting performance? Even if one had to give up a level of edge retention, I believe many folks might opt for the higher cutting performance.

Ok, this is more of a question/theory than a statement of fact. If we look at it from this perspective though then there is no reason to argue about abuse, misuse or how someone else should be using a knife. At some point an edge will be too thin for even the lightest use so the idea of this line of thinking is how different steels might be used and ground to optimize performance for ANY use, not just for hard use.

Thoughts?

So I bolded the point that I think needs to be addressed. Yes, for every steel (along with geometry and heat treat), there is a thickness that you can't cross for a given type of work. You can grind 1095 much thinner at 65 HRC than you can at 55 HRC for certain types of cutting. The extra 10 points will give it a LOT more strength and it will resist deformation better.

I had identical Calypso Jr's thinned by a fellow forumite years ago. One in VG10 and one in ZDP 189. The VG10 was too soft for the thin grind and it would deform when cutting harder materials. My fault, but I learned something. The ZDP 189 continues to be a beast, and cuts for a very long time, and sharpens up quickly due to being very thin. But I won't be prying with it...

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Boris,

I can see that you like and appreciate blade steels. That's good. Most don't have a clue. I think you are a "little serrated around the edges", with you communication style, but if you hang around long enough, I believe you will soften. Most folks here try to share knowledge as opposed to arguing......most, but not all.

I think that it would be difficult for me to come to many conclusions about a foundry's steel with just one bad experience.
As mentioned, there are other possibilities. Crucible spend a great deal of time and money to try to develop better steels. They also work closely with many factories and custom makers in developing those steels. To just assume that your one example was bad and that the type of steel is bad is not fair to the foundry or those involved in developing the steel.

The only real way to find out what's going on is to send it to Spyderco. They can determine if it is in fact a real one, as opposed to counterfeit, It can be tested, chemically analyzed and conclusions reached which will be shared here.

You can send it to:

Sal Glesser
Spyderco
820 Spyderco way
Golden, Colorado

USA 80403

thanx,

sal

 

[Wolverine666]

There ya go , Boris. Send it in to Spyderco. I'm curious about the verdict.

 

[Boris74]

Hi Boris,

I can see that you like and appreciate blade steels. That's good. Most don't have a clue. I think you are a "little serrated around the edges", with you communication style, but if you hang around long enough, I believe you will soften. Most folks here try to share knowledge as opposed to arguing......most, but not all.

I think that it would be difficult for me to come to many conclusions about a foundry's steel with just one bad experience.
As mentioned, there are other possibilities. Crucible spend a great deal of time and money to try to develop better steels. They also work closely with many factories and custom makers in developing those steels. To just assume that your one example was bad and that the type of steel is bad is not fair to the foundry or those involved in developing the steel.

The only real way to find out what's going on is to send it to Spyderco. They can determine if it is in fact a real one, as opposed to counterfeit, It can be tested, chemically analyzed and conclusions reached which will be shared here.

You can send it to:

Sal Glesser
Spyderco
820 Spyderco way
Golden, Colorado

USA 80403

thanx,

sal

Not serrated, just a high carbide content. I'm pretty sure he threw it away. He's one of them flavor of the week people who has more knives than my whole family could use in a few life times. If one of his others breaks I will send it to you. I expect a bounty though. I haven't had a spyderco since the 90s and just gave the last one I bought back then to my brother because he loves your knives.

Good to see you put in them extra hours on the weekend, that's dedication right there.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Boris,

A bounty is good. We always like to see what if any problems our knives might have. Can't make them better if we don't know what's wrong with them.

Now that I'm semi-retarded, I'm down to only 40 hours per week, and speaking with our customers is an important part.

sal