Are you over Super Steels?

[The Mastiff]

I have been a "steel junky" since I first tried Gerbers with 440C, L6, M2, then Vascowear. Spyderco turned the heat up by marking blade steels on the blades and writing something about them while giving their composition in the insert with the box. I did, and still can tell the difference between steels like 440A/C, Aus8, and other steels that pushed the envelope performance wise like 440V, ZDP, S30V, and S90V which were the first "super steels" I had knives in and could learn them. My process is sharpening and slicing based. I will try different grits and geometry's on new steels until I feel I have the edge I need for that steel at that hardness. Sometimes it is a lengthy process and others it isn't.

I also recall sitting with a composition chart with steels like M2 , D2 or whatever and studying trying to find out the steels I like and what composition they have. I recall wanting to try D2 and couldn't then find a D2 bladed production knife so I sent away for a slab of D2 and made a knife to try it in.

We are so spoiled now it's an embarrassment of riches. There are steels and knife types for almost every need I can think of. Then there is the Spyderco Mule team program. IMO that project has been one of the most notable undertakings ever done by a knife manufacturer . I have a complete set with the exception of the newest and never get over the happiness I feel when going through my collection to find the one I need, putting the scales on it and beginning using it. With the correct edge for the job at hand.

What other company would have gone to the trouble, much less done it with minimum markup. If another company made them and knew they had guaranteed sales in very hot steels would that company have marked them up knowing there was no where else to get them.

Sure there are other great companies besides Spyderco but when I think of steel choices, exotic sprint runs and a true drive for performance rather than just checklisting the features for sales I do think of high performance and "super steels".

On the other hand Spyderco has done it's runs of tool steels and even put those tool steels ( and ball bearing steels, and HSS, etc) in folders not because it was cheap or easy but because us customers asked for them. Several other companies only began using some of these steels after they were ran successfully by Spyderco. There was a time where companies didn't want to run anything but stainless because they felt that was what was needed.

So, I guess I never will be over "super steels", or tool steels, or HSS's, etc. On the other hand 1095 and O-1 are favorites of mine too.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

The thing about threads like this is I always feel vaguely like there are people out there asking, "Are you over innovation and things getting better?" Well, no. Never will be, either. I'm already at the point where I don't bother to pay for the bleeding edge, but the further that edge gets pushed the less expensive more advanced steels become. If 1095 is good enough for you, that's great, keep buying 1095, but the advances will benefit you, too because (well, if we learn to ignore some of the myths surrounding that and other steels) it will get less expensive to get good, dependable blades in 1095.

 

[adnj]

I am in two camps: stainless for what's in my pocket and high carbon for what's in a sheath. I have some super steels but it's the well heat treated value blades actually get the usage.

That said, I still buy what looks good whether it gets used or not.

 

[Murindo]

I like super steels but also own many knives in lesser steels. I'm pleased with all the choices we have these days. 30 years ago it was carbon steel or 440 (440C is excellent if the heat treat is done right)

 

[bodog]

I stopped considering highly corrosion and wear resistant steels super unless they can handle hard work. While I don't want to spend hours sharpening every week I don't want to HAVE to sharpen every couple of cuts either. Give me a tough steel that withstands edge fracturing and thats hard enough to resist edge deformation and I'll deal with the slow, even blunting. I don't really need a bunch of carbides always breaking off leaving me with a bunch of micro-serrations. Give me any quality steel that can perform like that and I'll be happy whether it's labeled as "super" or not. I'd much rather maker get the heat treatment right and then adequately describe what he made the knife for than to throw random, half assed finished steels and handles together with a vague description of what they're intending the knife to do. To me it seems a little patronizing.

For example I am liking this 52100 I am currently using and in a very similar knife Im liking Vanadis 4E. Two ends of the spectrum as far as chemistry and innovation goes while both are achieving exactly what I want in a knife. One due to chemistry and production quality of the steel and the other due to the grind and heat treatment of another quality steel. Both aspects can lead to the same desired result.

 

[JayGoliath]

Yes. I'm into Super Alloys now.

We are messing with only one of the many variables and the cycle keeps going.

 

[EChoil]

I buy the knife, not the steel.

I do like to have a loose 'minimum' of, say, AUS 8 for any blade...but then I look at some of my favorite knives, many of which are decades old, and realize that even those in 420 are just as important to me as the so-called 'superior' steels. I've never griped about a knife's steel in my life. I use them. I sharpen them. If a knife gets dull faster than I like I discard it without considering what kind of steel it was. Very rarely does that happen.

As to the other---Phooey. I've actually cooked right ON 1095 and other knife blades many times. The wide ones make a decent emergency grill for meat strips or small critters....I've never tasted knife in my food. Bet I never will.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Hmm, makes me think.

Everyone says carbon steel will impart a taste to food. Yet chefs swear by it, I swear by it in the kitchen too.

So do you actually have to be eating with the knife or what?

Thoughts?

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Thread Drift time!

Some Chefs swear by Carbon, Where I am in the State of Cally you better not have Carbon steel knives in a commercial kitchen when the Health dept people stop by to say hello. Its a Law here in and many other states.

Back to Original Programming. I look at each steel I use in my customs on its own merit. Doesn't matter how old or new.

 

[Lycosa]

btw, the industrial Becut steel is pretty amazing. I used my Wilken's chef knife for a long time and only had to hit the water stone once.

 

[DAVE_M]

Meh...

As long as the maker has a good heat treat and the knife comes out as expected, then I'm cool with it.

I have/had knives in 440c, 8cr13MoV, S30V, S35VN, Sleipner, 1095, O1 Tool Steel, Elmax, & 154cm; I don't have a preference, because I've gotten all of them sharp. However, the Sleipner was probably the most difficult to sharpen.

 

[craytab]

I have knives in a bunch of steels. I'm not "over" any of them.

It takes me literally only a few seconds to touch up S110V. Sharpening has a fairly nasty learning curve, but once you get it maintaining an edge with almost any steel is pretty quick and easy, provided you have the proper equipment. Now reprofiling something like S110V? That's where it becomes a bit more of a time sink.

Yup!

 

[grownstar]

I have knives in a bunch of steels. I'm not "over" any of them.

Here here!!!

 

[strategy9]

When I think of the term "super steel" I view it as generic term referring to high alloy stainless steels, covering pretty much everything that's come out as an "improvement" since 440c was king.

Reason i only umbrella stainless under the term "super steel" is because steel was steel, for a very long time, but then stainless steel itself was deemed "super steel" when it first hit the market, deemed an improvement on standard carbon varieties (unless you were in the straight razor business, lol).
"Tired of rust, check out this new super steel that resists rust!"

And thus stainless set the bar of being "superior" (super).
(Of course in the straight razor business I know, companies made various claims of having "carbo-magnetic steel" and whatever, but it was all more marketing gimmicks rather then anything truly unique)

Then 440c came out, it was the 1st real "super" (stainless) steel as it did everything well with little lacking... While stainless was deemed superior to carbon in most practical applications, 440c became the superior form of stainless fir many of thosevsame applications. Since then, 154cm was an "improvement" on 440c, and so on and so forth; particles, vacuums, cpm varieties, carpenter technologies, japanese varieties, they're all out to make that "better" steel, and whether it be H1 and its rust proof, or s30-35-60-90v, m390, and their superior edge holding; vg10, n690, ELMAX, etc. the complexities of the alloys is so much more advanced, the technology behind the manufacturing process is more advanced, and at least to me, that is what I think of as "super steels", any stainless steel that is arguably (and/or vastly) "superior" to 440(c) as an all around steel for one reason or another; and 440 series and all the equivalents, 7+cr"X"mov, aus" X", sandvik, even 420hc, etc) I view as the "standard" of basic stainless steels today

Then your high carbon (non stainless) steels and tool steels I view as a whole separate category be it o1, ten-series, or d2 and 3v)
-(and for lower carbon levels, be it stainless or carbon, be it 5cr(3cr), 1045, etc, I view as "axe" steels, and don't even see them in the same category as as viable "knife" steels less its a cheap machete).

Not that that IS the true definition, written in stone and to be taken as gospel, but in a nutshell for me at least, that's pretty much how I differentiate between the different steel varieties and their sub categories.

2 cents, take it or leave it for what it's worth.

 

[Acadian]

Exactly. And, even then it's more a hobby or fad and not absolutely necessary. Any well made knife, that's properly heat treated, in any steel combined with a good portable strop or stone is all that is needed for any task. If you ask me, the easiest to sharpen steels are the best option as they can quickly be touched up in the field and kept hair popping all the time.

People get obsessed with steel types when really, it just doesn't matter that much. Heat treatment and geometry is far more important then the type of steel used imo.

I bet the big knife companies laugh as they drain the bank accounts of steel snobs lol.

Agreed 100%.......

that is also where I stand.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

that is also where I stand.

I have to disagree. I think those two elements are just as important as the type of steel chosen, but if you make a perfectly heat treated folder with fantastic geometry in 304 stainless it's still going to be a piece of junk. On the other end of the spectrum you could build a dive knife with fantastic heat treat and perfect geometry out of CPM-10V and it would be almost totally unusable for its intended purpose.

I think steel is easier to get right as there are a spectrum of steels that are more than sufficient for most purposes, but I don't think it's less important.

 

[Acadian]

I have to disagree. I think those two elements are just as important as the type of steel chosen, but if you make a perfectly heat treated folder with fantastic geometry in 304 stainless it's still going to be a piece of junk. On the other end of the spectrum you could build a dive knife with fantastic heat treat and perfect geometry out of CPM-10V and it would be almost totally unusable for its intended purpose.

I think steel is easier to get right as there are a spectrum of steels that are more than sufficient for most purposes, but I don't think it's less important.

all great points, especially if you are looking for a "purposely" built knife (eg. for fishing, diving, hunting, cooking).

I was thinking more about general EDC knives made from the more commonly used steels, although your point about 304 is a valid one. Guess there are some steels I wouldn't by after all, but if you buy a knife made from 304 you should expect to get what you pay for as I expect you wouldn't be paying much for one.

Maybe there are, but I doubt you'll find a knife in the $100 range made with 304 steel (or it's equivalent)?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

all great points, especially if you are looking for a "purposely" build knife (eg. for fishing, diving, hunting, cooking).

I was thinking more about general EDC knives made from the more commonly used steels, although your point about 304 is a valid one. Guess there are some steels I wouldn't by after all, but if you buy a knife made from 304 you should expect to get what you pay for as I expect you wouldn't be paying much for one.

Maybe there are, but I doubt you'll find a knife in the $100 range made with 304 steel (or it's equivalent)?

I should hope not! Like I said, I think that steel is easier to get right, but that it's also easy for knife knuts to take for granted that most companies pick very good steels for the intended purpose most of the time.

 

[sodak]

Actually, I'm finding it harder to go back to the older steels. I just got tired of chasing a burr on my 1095 stockman this morning, and picked up a small fixed bladed knife in CPM M4. It sharpened up crisply in less than a minute and the edge lasts a whole lot longer.

Easier sharpening and better edge holding. What's not to like?

 

[D.B Cooper]

Eh. I guess im kind of "over" super steels, since I've drifted fully into Traditional Land. 1095 does all my cutting chores just fine, and i have a couple of stainless traditionals for when the mood strikes me. The only exeption is my cherished Sebenza 25, which is S35vn, but really could be anything as far as im concerned. I would still love that knife just the same. Its more about blade geometry and ergonomics to me.

 

[Akcir]

I stopped considering highly corrosion and wear resistant steels super unless they can handle hard work. While I don't want to spend hours sharpening every week I don't want to HAVE to sharpen every couple of cuts either. Give me a tough steel that withstands edge fracturing and thats hard enough to resist edge deformation and I'll deal with the slow, even blunting. I don't really need a bunch of carbides always breaking off leaving me with a bunch of micro-serrations. Give me any quality steel that can perform like that and I'll be happy whether it's labeled as "super" or not. I'd much rather maker get the heat treatment right and then adequately describe what he made the knife for than to throw random, half assed finished steels and handles together with a vague description of what they're intending the knife to do. To me it seems a little patronizing.

For example I am liking this 52100 I am currently using and in a very similar knife Im liking Vanadis 4E. Two ends of the spectrum as far as chemistry and innovation goes while both are achieving exactly what I want in a knife. One due to chemistry and production quality of the steel and the other due to the grind and heat treatment of another quality steel. Both aspects can lead to the same desired result.

This is what I think. I like something that I can work the guts out of, and not be a damned popsicle stick after 10 minutes.