Are You Serious?

I was set up at a small show in Mississippi when two good ol' boys hauled themselves over to my table. "You make these?" one asked and I replied that I did. He then stated that he collected knives. That he was a "knife collector, big time." His buddy then shouted out in reference to his friend, "Yeah, he's a big time knife collector. Big time!" He then picked up a couple of hunters and began (in the words of Jim Batson) coon-fingerin' them.

After a bit he asked how much this particular piece was and I replied, "$500."
He dropped that thing like it was red-hot. Clanked it right on top of a couple other blades as it bounced around. He exclained, "Man, you're proud of those!" All I could do was reply, "Big time......":rolleyes:

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

Good story Terry.
Don't know how you guys hold it together when that happens. ;)
 
Here are a few of my thoughts on this thread. I have a customer that had a few factory knifes, nothing really special. He stumbled across my website,contacted me and orderd a couple of knives.The pair cost him 1200.00, Since his first purchase he has bought a bowie that was a little over a grand, as well as a couple more pieces that were rather pricey and has another piece on order for around the same amount.Now keep in mind he was'nt a collector until he start buying my work, but now he says he is a collector. Do I consider him to be a serious collector? You bet I do!If someone is will to spend that amount of money to purchase a knife or knives that they really want, then I consider them to be serious, even if they are just starting to collect.Now these knives do not just sit in a display case. He has at least one or more with him each and every day since purchasing them, and shows them to anyone that is willing to look at them, so even if he is just starting, his love for these knives and his willingness to share them with others makes him a serious collector in my book, even if he only collects my work.
As far as a serious maker, I consider myself to be serious about what I do.Not a day goes by that I don't think about knifemaking, and even though I have been at it for 10 years I am still on a constant quest to learn more and perfect what I do even more.A guy once ask me did I make knives because I like too, or did I just do it for the money. My answer was I do it because I love doing it, and getting paid to do it is just icing on the cake, that if I knew I would never sell another knife I would still do it.
My wife once told me that I think about knifemaking so much that it consumes me and I need professional help, so yeah, I'm a serious maker:D

Yep, well said and I agree.
 
I guess what I'm getting at is can the custom knife industry grow and progress significantly with mostly causal custom knifemakers and collectors or does it require some degree of serious makers/collectors?

What are the things that differentiate serious makers and collectors from casual makers and collectors as far as you are concerned?
 
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There are a lot of ways to express what the chart depicted in the magazine expresses. I find it interesting, and telling, that it chooses an hierarchical pyramid format. To me it conveys the answer to much of what I think these kinds of questions dance around.
 
I guess what I'm getting at is can the custom knife industry grow and progress significantly with mostly causal custom knifemakers and collectors or does it require some degree of serious makers/collectors?

By your defintion of "casual", has the custom knife industry not grown and progressed to this point with mostly casual collectors and makers?

Roger
 
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Serious is a state of mind--not finance.

I agree with that statement 100%....however.....a SERIOUS Collector to makers is UNDOUBTEDLY those that have and spend many $$$$ on knives.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or dispute any opinions, but my opinion is that while this is an interesting topic, and has resulted in many valid opinions, there is not a clear definition of what a "serious collector" is.

I think the reason for that, is the term means different things to different people.

Most on this forum would NOT consider me a "serious" collector, as I am NOT famous, don't spend $1000+ and knives and don't travel around the country to attend the major shows.

But I take my involvement in knives seriously.:D

Peter
 
I guess what I'm getting at is can the custom knife industry grow and progress significantly with mostly causal custom knifemakers and collectors or does it require some degree of serious makers/collectors?

What are the things that differentiate serious makers and collectors from casual makers and collectors as far as you are concerned?

OK Keith, here's my general definitions or more traits which IMO casual makers and collectors would tend to posses. Not saying of course they would necessarily posses then all. Again, I'm not stating there's anything wrong with a casual collecting approach.

I would define a causal maker as one who makes good knives, however doesn't really put a lot of effort in promoting himself/his business or the industry in general. Perhaps doesn't put as much time into the business end as he/she could. More of a recreational maker.

I would define a casual collector as one who enjoys and buys custom knives, however doesn't really get too involved in the community. Doesn't go to many if any shows, doesn't regularly interact with other collectors and makers. Less likely to take the time to study and learn more about custom knives, as they are satisfied with a general knowledge. Buys what they like and future appreciation in value and/or sale isn’t really a concern.

I agree with that statement 100%....however.....a SERIOUS Collector to makers is UNDOUBTEDLY those that have and spend many $$$$ on knives.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or dispute any opinions, but my opinion is that while this is an interesting topic, and has resulted in many valid opinions, there is not a clear definition of what a "serious collector" is.

I think the reason for that, is the term means different things to different people.

Most on this forum would NOT consider me a "serious" collector, as I am NOT famous, don't spend $1000+ and knives and don't travel around the country to attend the major shows.

But I take my involvement in knives seriously.:D Peter

Hi Peter.
I would like to hear what your and Keith's definition of a serious collector is. Mind is basically the opposite of the definition I stated above for casual.

I would have to disagree and say IMO you and many others on this forum ARE serious collectors. Your participation here, your well thought out post, your obvious dedication to the community and your willingness to help newer collectors support my opinion.

It seems the majority here (including myself) think the amount of money one spends on knives is not that important in determining seriousness.
Considering the effort involved and expense in going to shows, I do believe its a pretty good indicator of ones seriousness.
 
I guess what I'm getting at is can the custom knife industry grow and progress significantly with mostly causal custom knifemakers and collectors or does it require some degree of serious makers/collectors?

By your defintion of "casual", has the custom knife industry not grown and progressed to this point with mostly casual collectors and makers?

Roger

The "key" words in my question above are "grown and progressed significantly".
To answer your question, I would say not significantly, especially as compared to other collectibles such as stamps, watches, art and classic cars to name a few. I'm not saying lack of seriousness is totally to blame for custom knives's lag behind but it has contributed IMO.

Are you going to answer my question ;)
 
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There are a lot of ways to express what the chart depicted in the magazine expresses. I find it interesting, and telling, that it chooses an hierarchical pyramid format. To me it conveys the answer to much of what I think these kinds of questions dance around.


Aren't we being subtle as we slip a stab in :p
 
I honestly haven't given it any thought as to whether or not I am a serious collector. I was shocked to see myself mentioned by Les Robertson! I have a deep passion for custom knives. I know what I like, and go after that with a passion. Perhaps I AM a serious collector. I dunno.
 
Kevin, casual collectors, by your definition can be found at knife shows spending "stupid" money on knives...merely because they have the money to do so. Some people, because they see or hear of them spending a lot of money on knives would take them to be "Serious Collectors." They may eventually become "Serious Collectors."

I know with myself when I first started collecting I was a casual collector. I changed to a "serious collector" when I found I was buying crap, mostly because I didn't know what I was looking at.

Every show out there has tables full of knives that will only appeal to the "casual collector" primarily because they really don't know what they are looking at.

Kevin, it is the casual and more serious collectors who primarily move the custom knife market forward. While it is certainly advantageous to have the big time collectors spending a lot of money. More times than not that spending is focused on just a few makers, i.e. you and Jerry Fisk knives.

While you spend a lot of money on custom knives, because it is so focused does it really do as much good, for the custom knife market as for example someone who spends an equal amount of money over the entire market? Lets face it, Jerry Fisk would still be one of the premier knife makers in the world whether you bought his knives or not. Not that Jerry isn't grateful for your support. But lets face it, Jerry did most of the "heavy lifting" before you were even interested in custom knives. Often times, especially for those looking for a return on their investment it is the smarter move to buy from a maker with an established performance record like Jerry. Than to wade through the hundreds of new makers who show up each year. Yours is an excellent strategy that has bode well for many collectors in the past and will for generations of collectors to come.

Are you a serious collector...yes you are. But no more or less serious than someone like TKC...just a different collecting focus.

TKC, don't be shocked...you are a serious collector. You put a lot of time, energy and thought into your purchases. Because you do put so much time into the "homework" of your purchases you and collectors like you are moving the market forward.

2Knife

Wouldn't the "Safest" investment in knife collecting also coincide with mass appeal, such as Case and Randal?

First, define investment. Are you looking for a particular ROI, if so what percentage?

How do dealers perceive this risk factor, buying knives for resale?

Speaking for myself, I do as much as I can to eliminate the 'Risk"...however you will never eliminate all of it. Probably the best way to eliminate or minimize risk today is the same as it has always been....Information/Intelligence. The technology of today goes a long way to minimizing risk.

Like you, I also agree with "Sage of Tennessee" :D

Serious is a state of mind--not finance.
 
Hi Peter.
I would like to hear what your and Keith's definition of a serious collector is. Mind is basically the opposite of the definition I stated above for casual.

I would have to disagree and say IMO you and many others on this forum ARE serious collectors. Your participation here, your well thought out post, your obvious dedication to the community and your willingness to help newer collectors support my opinion.

It seems the majority here (including myself) think the amount of money one spends on knives is not that important in determining seriousness.
Considering the effort involved and expense in going to shows, I do believe its a pretty good indicator of ones seriousness.

Kevin,
I could not or would not attempt to define what a "serious" collector IS for everybody, because I do feel that term differs for different people and circumstances.

For me, it is somebody that takes the time to learn about the subject, actively participates and supports the activity in an effort to better it. Not because I expect to profit, just because I enjoy it. Hopefully, the time will not come when it is no longer enjoyable.

I have seen those in various endeavors, that participate simply because they have more money than they know what to do with, and when another activity becomes more in vogue, they simply move on to the new hobby. They don't have a passion for what they do but are just looking for recognition and approval from others.

Peter
 
Perhaps it is MY perception...but I see a confluence of "collectors" and "investors" developing. While saavy collectors may profit from their collections, investors have ONE driving force...PROFIT.

Peter
 
Kevin, casual collectors, by your definition can be found at knife shows spending "stupid" money on knives...merely because they have the money to do so. Some people, because they see or hear of them spending a lot of money on knives would take them to be "Serious Collectors." They may eventually become "Serious Collectors."

I agree.

I know with myself when I first started collecting I was a casual collector. I changed to a "serious collector" when I found I was buying crap, mostly because I didn't know what I was looking at.

Typical of many if not most collectors.

Every show out there has tables full of knives that will only appeal to the "casual collector" primarily because they really don't know what they are looking at.

Kevin, it is the casual and more serious collectors who primarily move the custom knife market forward. While it is certainly advantageous to have the big time collectors spending a lot of money. More times than not that spending is focused on just a few makers, i.e. you and Jerry Fisk knives.

I agree, the community needs a balance of both.

While you spend a lot of money on custom knives, because it is so focused does it really do as much good, for the custom knife market as for example someone who spends an equal amount of money over the entire market? Lets face it, Jerry Fisk would still be one of the premier knife makers in the world whether you bought his knives or not. Not that Jerry isn't grateful for your support. But lets face it, Jerry did most of the "heavy lifting" before you were even interested in custom knives. ?? Often times, especially for those looking for a return on their investment it is the smarter move to buy from a maker with an established performance record like Jerry. Than to wade through the hundreds of new makers who show up each year. Yours is an excellent strategy that has bode well for many collectors in the past and will for generations of collectors to come.

How much money I spend and who I spend it with has nothing to do with my seriousness as a collector. As I said in my opening post, I consider myself serious because of the time and effort I put into the custom knife community. Though you contend that my purchases do little, I believe the time and effort I put into the cumunity does more.

Not that is has anything to do with the subject at hand (and I don't understand why you bring it up), but when or where have I EVER said I had anything to do with Jerry's success? As a matter of fact, I have always credited him with any success I have enjoyed in my collecting.



Are you a serious collector...yes you are. But no more or less serious than someone like TKC...just a different collecting focus.

As you stated in your first post "seriousness is not so tied to money spend", I agree and also suggest nor is it tied to any specific collecting focus. And unlike some, I'm by no means arrogant enough to state I'm more or less of anything than TKC or anyone else.

TKC, don't be shocked...you are a serious collector. You put a lot of time, energy and thought into your purchases. Because you do put so much time into the "homework" of your purchases you and collectors like you are moving the market forward.

2Knife



First, define investment. Are you looking for a particular ROI, if so what percentage?



Speaking for myself, I do as much as I can to eliminate the 'Risk"...however you will never eliminate all of it. Probably the best way to eliminate or minimize risk today is the same as it has always been....Information/Intelligence. The technology of today goes a long way to minimizing risk.

Like you, I also agree with "Sage of Tennessee" :D

********************
 
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