As a hard user of knives, I worry about KAI's direction.

o4tg said:
That's my point though. Aside from numerous Hinderer designs, they really haven't came out with msny recent "tool" knives, but it seems like they have a new "collector" knife every month lately. I'm not saying forget the collectors, I'm saying please throw a bone to the heavy users.

Why would I get an Emerson when the 0350 is a superior design in my eyes? Materials are only part of the equation in a knife. Please don't take that offensively if that counters your purchase decisions. That's not agreeing to your insulting of Emerson either. They're good blades, I just prefer ZT's.
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I believe that you are labeling these knives as "collector." Every ZT is designed and meant to be used. The 0600 is not a hard use knife because only a thousand are being made? Thats silly, look at the knife for what it is, not the rarity or production numbers.
 
Collectors spend the money.
As a profitable company, I imagine it makes sense to market to the demographic with a more expendable budget, which may not be "users".

OP: Your opinion on metal handles and general knife use is refreshing. Thanks for starting the thread.
 
I'm all for the limited runs and collectors' editions. Beautiful pieces worth value and then some. I also like the regular lines for hard use.
 
I'm in no way trying to imply their newer models aren't tough. However, I don't think many of these luxurious designs are actually being designed with day to day hard use in mind as the primary goal is what I was trying to convey. That's not to say they're not capable of it or that ZT wasn't concerned about it, but that they're not something the average knife abuser will consider. As an analogy, the 0300 is like a Ford Raptor and the 0454 is like a Lincoln Navigator. One is designed to kick ass and take names as regular use, the other with the intent of being flashy and custom looking but still able to go off road if need be.
 
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I don't have a need for hard use knives. I primarily carry and collect general purpose EDC knives. However, I agree with the OP.

ZT has it's reputation in producing tough over-built reliable cutting tools. Too keep that reputation they should listen to those who use them as such, and not put so much stake in how cool everyone says that composite blade looks. However, I would hate to see ZT become like Emerson. Emerson has gone a little to far in the other direction. They tend to float on their image and reputation rather than quality per price. The composite blades and carbon fiber look great in a glass case, but I'd rather see solid s110v or M390 at a proper RC stuck in the side of tree. In any case their build quality and FnF is excellent and that will never change regardless of their direction.
 
Very well said Moxy (better than I did obviously).

Variety is the spice of life, and as a guy who has always had ZT be the first brand to come to mind for a value packed quality hard use knife, I would like to see more in that field from ZT. I like the Hinderer designs but would like some more new variety for "practical" use. I used to watch ZT like a hawk, but now while I think some of the designs are really cool, I just can't picture many outdoorsmen, police, or military people carrying them as a tool. That's not to say they couldn't, they just aren't as practical in that role.
 
o4tg said:
I'm in no way trying to imply their newer models aren't tough. However, I don't think many of these luxurious designs are actually being designed with day to day hard use in mind as the primary goal is what I was trying to convey. That's not to say they're not capable of it or that ZT wasn't concerned about it, but that they're not something the average knife abuser will consider. As an analogy, the 0300 is like a Ford Raptor and the 0454 is like a Lincoln Navigator. One is designed to kick ass and take names as regular use, the other with the intent of being flashy and custom looking but still able to go off road if need be.
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I'm confused by your contradictory statements. First, you say that you do not want to convey the opinion that the newer ZT models are not tough or capable. Yet almost immediately you say "these luxurious designs are not for day to day hard use in mind". Says who? How do we know how much use a person will put any knife through, many are collectors and many are not. Jimmer already stated that on this particular knife (0454), the blade design is purely aesthetic, and they're right. It's a beautiful knife. Not sure about you, but I love CPM-D2, it's a great steel.

For years I carried and used a $400+ CRK knife, it cut cable, stripped wire, broke down boxes, scrapped paint, notched 2x4s, scored drywall, etc. nowadays, my 0560 does most of that, and even more recently, the 0560 CBCF is doing a great job of it.

Another thing, what exactly is or how do you define "the average knife abuser"? Automotive analogies are difficult because they don't really fit when comparing to knives. But if you are comfortable with them, think of the 0454 as a Land Rover, yes it sure is pretty, and it drives over the mud, through water and still cleans up nice at the end of the day. In a nutshell, what I'm understanding is that ZT shouldn't push any boundaries and basically stick with the same old designs that launched the line up.
 
RevDevil said:
I'm confused by your contradictory statements. First, you say that you do not want to convey the opinion that the newer ZT models are not tough or capable. Yet almost immediately you say "these luxurious designs are not for day to day hard use in mind". Says who? How do we know how much use a person will put any knife through, many are collectors and many are not. Jimmer already stated that on this particular knife (0454), the blade design is purely aesthetic, and they're right. It's a beautiful knife. Not sure about you, but I love CPM-D2, it's a great steel.

For years I carried and used a $400+ CRK knife, it cut cable, stripped wire, broke down boxes, scrapped paint, notched 2x4s, scored drywall, etc. nowadays, my 0560 does most of that, and even more recently, the 0560 CBCF is doing a great job of it.

Another thing, what exactly is or how do you define "the average knife abuser"? Automotive analogies are difficult because they don't really fit when comparing to knives. But if you are comfortable with them, think of the 0454 as a Land Rover, yes it sure is pretty, and it drives over the mud, through water and still cleans up nice at the end of the day. In a nutshell, what I'm understanding is that ZT shouldn't push any boundaries and basically stick with the same old designs that launched the line up.
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Something tells me when the 0777 was designed, they didn't envision a guy in the wild carving wood, or a grunt prying apart a supply crate. I never once said they weren't tough, just that they weren't designed with the duties of say an 0300 in mind. If you were being dropped in the middle of the woods and your two choices for a knife were an 0454 and an 0300, can you honestly say you'd choose to leave the 0300 behind?

If you read my follow up responses, what I'm saying is I'm somewhat worried that if it weren't for Rick Hinderer's designs, ZT would be abandoning development in the US made no frills practical rugged knife market. Instead lots of practical KAI designs are being pushed off to the cheap import market. That's great for the people who buy budget knives, but the guys like me looking to spend $250'ish on a rugged knife (in function and looks) are pretty much left with only Hinderers for new designs while everyone else gets attention. My concern is that the very model ZT was built on is slowly dying off.
 
Hey bud, like someone suggested, did you watch that video Stick put up? Near the end of it, Thomas talks about the ZT line's direction etc.

The knives that we all like are still there and don't count them out from producing more rugged and LEO inspired models in the future along with the rest of them and they all I am sure will have the quality we expect from ZT.

They have some great knives coming out, ZT has my attention. I like your Land Rover example actually. All show but also All go.

One last thing, I had a thought that the Kershaw line should continue on with providing higher end models like the Volt 3600 and Tilt. If it's all going to the ZT name for the prestige, I realize now that it doesn't matter if they go that direction. All they are doing is expanding ZT to cover a bigger spectrum but I agree that what made ZT what it is should def remain well represented.
 
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ZT already have the 03xx, 056x, 0350 for really rugged use and I think they have fulfilled the "hard user" niche.

It surely doesn't hurt to see them venture into new territory with premium materials.

And Jim himself has said the new knives do not compromise on their rugged ability.

ZT at blade 2013 was like a breath of fresh air with a waft of juicy sirloin steak. Their show was a TKO.
 
o4tg said:
When ZT was started, it wasn't a luxury brand. It was a hard use brand. They were advertised as tactical knives for people like military, police, and outdoorsmen. Knives like the 0300, 0200, and various others. I like them and my favorite folder of all time is the 0350.\
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So were Strider, Emerson, Les George, But they all make Fancy looking knives too
 
I get what the OP is saying.

When I first spied the 0777 I said WTF?, I could not believe it was a ZT design.


But as others have pointed out, plenty of simple working knives in the line-up.

Nothing wrong with a company growing it's brand(s).


In this day and age knife makers have to work hard to make enough to stay alive.





Big Mike
 
What I see is a move to more of the production in the USA moving over to the ZT line. With every new ZT a Kershaw that is made in the USA goes away and is replaced with three overseas models. Only so much production can happen at one plant and with so many new and in high demand ZTs coming out get ready to say goodbye to some Kershaws made there. Speedform 2 and Echelon just the two we know of. Also all of the US made Kershaw fixed blades are set to go away as will.

Not hating here just ready to see all of the great ZTs that are being produced with the free up production. They are rolling out the 0801 very soon. Less than 6 months from Shot Show to your door!
 
Thomas has said for awhile now that Zero Tolerance's line would evolve. Some designs would be more elegant, and some a little more simplistic. As far as moving some of Rick's designs over seas, they explicitly said that they wanted to get Rick's designs into about every price point they could. So that everyone could afford one. Let's also not forget that we are a minority in the knife world. Even one hundred dollars would be an insane amount to drop on a knife to alot of people.

As far as hard use. I do not see how any of the designs are inherently weaker. Or any less apt to be used by myself. I honestly am not into the whole tank folding knife fad, so the 0801 looks like a winner all around for me. The 0777 to me was Zero Tolerance's demonstration of the technology they are currently capable of.

As far as aluminum being influenced by the elements in terms of grip comfort. I have never had a problem with aluminum getting so hot in the sun that I didn't want to hold it, or too cold in the winter.

But then again the whole idea of a hard use folder is a bit of a misnomer to me. Because lets face it, batoning, prying, and hacking with a folder on a regular basis is going to leave it in disrepair rather quickly.
 
sticktodrum said:
That's your own fault, and your own problem. It's essentially the "McDonald's made me fat" argument. I've used plenty of ZT knives, and their high end LEs perform extremely well. They're strong, and can take as much of a beating as you can throw at it. If you're not using your ZTs, then that's all on you. It's not their fault.

You're asking them to make more boring knives that you're not afraid to use. I hope they never do that. They're making exciting products, and I'm willing to bet you haven't actually held the Rexfords, or the 0600. Those pieces are solid, and aren't going to buckle under any hard use.

Moreover, I have no idea why you'd call the 0801 flamboyant, but it gives me an idea of where you're coming from and it's a position I can't hold in any sort of high esteem.
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+1 ^for sure on this,some of their offerings are already approaching +7 oz.,a knife that heavy is not an easy seller,and selling is a big part of the game.....sorry OP,cant be all things to everyone.
 
Well without adding to any tension I just want to say my 056x models are my main users and I have no issues with the tie side. The texturing is actually more "grippy" than the g10 on my 0350. The deep carry pocket clip keeps it in the pocket so there isn't direct sunlight on it to heat it to an uncomfortable point when grabbing it, likewise my body heat keeps it from ever getting so cold it bothers me to hold it bare handed in the winter.
 
I see a thriving company making superior quality knives with great value for the price right here in America. They have in no way turned away from the hard-use knives. They're producing more knives than ever and that's a great thing.
 
Big Mike said:
I get what the OP is saying.

When I first spied the 0777 I said WTF?, I could not believe it was a ZT design.


But as others have pointed out, plenty of simple working knives in the line-up.

Nothing wrong with a company growing it's brand(s).


In this day and age knife makers have to work hard to make enough to stay alive.





Big Mike
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Agree with every single word here. I couldn't have said it better.
 
To me expanding the ZT line is a bit different than moving the line in a different direction. Expanding the line is making new designs that they think will capture a new/different market and still being the "tough knife" we have come to know, while keeping the no frills models like the 30x, 350, and so on. Moving the line, at least to me, would be just letting those no frill models die away while only making the purdy ones. The new BW models show that KAI is not just letting them go away. Sure some new steels or scales would be nice, but not necessary to keep my business. They haven't forgotten their roots they're just diversifying the family bit.
 
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