As a hard user of knives, I worry about KAI's direction.

[Fanglekai]

They are doing the Sprint run thing that other companies do. It's geared toward collectors who won't ever use the knives. Who is going to drop half a grand on a 777 or 545 or whatever to use it hard? Maybe 5 of the people who buy it? Maybe 1? Maybe none? There is a lot of money in the collectors market for limited edition knives made with limited edition materials. They aren't making these knives to be used hard. They make them for people to safe queen them hard.

Lots of companies do the same thing. It's not surprising. It makes business sense or it wouldn't be done. Collectors get their safe queens and users get the user models.

 

[Steel130]

They are doing the Sprint run thing that other companies do. It's geared toward collectors who won't ever use the knives. Who is going to drop half a grand on a 777 or 545 or whatever to use it hard? Maybe 5 of the people who buy it? Maybe 1? Maybe none? There is a lot of money in the collectors market for limited edition knives made with limited edition materials. They aren't making these knives to be used hard. They make them for people to safe queen them hard.

Lots of companies do the same thing. It's not surprising. It makes business sense or it wouldn't be done. Collectors get their safe queens and users get the user models.

They make the knives to be functional, otherwise they wouldn't even heat treat the blades. It is the people who buy them, that can't get over using them because they are limited, that are to blame.

 

[wobly]

They are doing the Sprint run thing that other companies do.... They aren't making these knives to be used hard. They make them for people to safe queen them hard.

Lots of companies do the same thing. It's not surprising. It makes business sense or it wouldn't be done. Collectors get their safe queens and users get the user models.

Interesting discussion. I would further state that a $500 knife to me might be a good investment in a quality knife that will be used daily while you might make it a safe queen to protect your purchase. I think that if you asked any of the Kai reps what their intent was when they designed and built the "pretty" knives, you would hear that they wanted functional tools that had eye appeal, as well. There are some well established members of this forum that buy what most would consider a very expensive knife and then EDC it. I, myself, have some very low priced knives that have never cut anything while I have some expensive knives that I have damn near wore out. Some of the reasons could be sentimental value or just plain personal preference.

Don't try to assume what the next guy will do with his tools. Way too many people use a screwdriver as a chisel or prybar.

 

[Scurvy092]

They are doing the Sprint run thing that other companies do. It's geared toward collectors who won't ever use the knives. Who is going to drop half a grand on a 777 or 545 or whatever to use it hard? Maybe 5 of the people who buy it? Maybe 1? Maybe none? There is a lot of money in the collectors market for limited edition knives made with limited edition materials. They aren't making these knives to be used hard. They make them for people to safe queen them hard.

Lots of companies do the same thing. It's not surprising. It makes business sense or it wouldn't be done. Collectors get their safe queens and users get the user models.

I don't see how you can compare a knife like the 0777 or the 0454 to a Sprint Run/Limited Edition/Gold Class from other companies where all they do is just take an existing model, change the handle color/material, change the blade steel and be done with it.

What was the last Sprint Run/Limited Edition/Gold Class that won Overall Knife of the Year at Blade?

The 0777, 0454, 0888 etc are statement pieces by the company. They are trying to stretch their legs, do something different and try to push the boundaries of what is possible in a production knife.

How can you begrudge them that?

 

[Fanglekai]

They make the knives to be functional, otherwise they wouldn't even heat treat the blades. It is the people who buy them, that can't get over using them because they are limited, that are to blame.

Functional isn't the same as designed for hard use. There is no need for fancy materials in a hard use knife. Collectible objects by design are not meant to be used. Their value is in staying pristine new in box safe queens. Why use a $500 limited edition collectible for hard use when a $100 regular production knife will so the same jobs? The materials used in expensive knives aren't always the best choices for use either. Slippery carbon fiber, fancy blades, etc.

This isn't limited to knives or ZT. It's a business plan used all over to generate revenue and satisfy collectors. Nothing wrong with that. It makes people happy and makes the company money.

 

[daveb068]

Let's all just remember that opinions on here vary as much as the knives we discuss. We may not agree with every one of them( or at times none of them), but everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[Scurvy092]

Functional isn't the same as designed for hard use. There is no need for fancy materials in a hard use knife. Collectible objects by design are not meant to be used. Their value is in staying pristine new in box safe queens. Why use a $500 limited edition collectible for hard use when a $100 regular production knife will so the same jobs? The materials used in expensive knives aren't always the best choices for use either. Slippery carbon fiber, fancy blades, etc.

This isn't limited to knives or ZT. It's a business plan used all over to generate revenue and satisfy collectors. Nothing wrong with that. It makes people happy and makes the company money.

Why does every knife have to be a hard use knife? Most of the folding knife buying public (especially people who spend over $100 on a knife) are never going to 'hard use' their knives. They will do EDC tasks (open envelopes, cut loose threads, open packages, light food prep etc etc etc) and be happy.

If I work in an office all day and I want to but a ZT knife, am I going to bring in a 0300? That would be silly and probably get me in trouble. Now, if I brought in a 0801 or 0770cf, it is a completely different story.

 

[Fanglekai]

Interesting discussion. I would further state that a $500 knife to me might be a good investment in a quality knife that will be used daily while you might make it a safe queen to protect your purchase. I think that if you asked any of the Kai reps what their intent was when they designed and built the "pretty" knives, you would hear that they wanted functional tools that had eye appeal, as well. There are some well established members of this forum that buy what most would consider a very expensive knife and then EDC it. I, myself, have some very low priced knives that have never cut anything while I have some expensive knives that I have damn near wore out. Some of the reasons could be sentimental value or just plain personal preference.

Don't try to assume what the next guy will do with his tools. Way too many people use a screwdriver as a chisel or prybar.

How many 0777s have we seen on here that have been used hard? How many 0300s? There is nothing wrong with collecting. Most people won't EDC a super expensive limited edition object.

I don't see how you can compare a knife like the 0777 or the 0454 to a Sprint Run/Limited Edition/Gold Class from other companies where all they do is just take an existing model, change the handle color/material, change the blade steel and be done with it.

What was the last Sprint Run/Limited Edition/Gold Class that won Overall Knife of the Year at Blade?

The 0777, 0454, 0888 etc are statement pieces by the company. They are trying to stretch their legs, do something different and try to push the boundaries of what is possible in a production knife.

How can you begrudge them that?

Where did I begrudge? They are limited edition aka Sprint run knives designed for and marketed to collectors. This is something lots of companies do. Again there is nothing inherently wrong with it and you will see that in my posts I never claimed it was wrong. It's a business plan to satisfy collectors.

 

[supercoup]

and I've leanred you will never get the quality out of China that you will from the US.

I think it would be wise to stay away from broad, sweeping, and inaccurate generalizations such as these. Thousands, if not millions of products are produced in China to top notch specs. The iPhone, one of the most popular and arguable, best, cell phone on the market is manufactured in China. So are thousands of parts that you rely on daily that have yet to fail you.

Not that I'm defending China. I'm just merely pointing that such generalizations are usually unhealthy and unproductive - i.e. all American's are fat, all products that come from China are inferior, all rednecks are dumb and all city people are soft.

To your point about the ZT line, I do agree with you that they are straying away from their no frills, hard use line. However, I fail to see an issue with that. They've been making hard-use knives since their inception as a branch of Kershaw, pretty much. So I think they've earned the right to embellish their line a bit "sprint runs" or what have you.

I'm sure they will return to their no frills line which you desire -- but for now I think they've earned a little creative expression.

 

[Fanglekai]

Why does every knife have to be a hard use knife? Most of the folding knife buying public (especially people who spend over $100 on a knife) are never going to 'hard use' their knives. They will do EDC tasks (open envelopes, cut loose threads, open packages, light food prep etc etc etc) and be happy.

If I work in an office all day and I want to but a ZT knife, am I going to bring in a 0300? That would be silly and probably get me in trouble. Now, if I brought in a 0801 or 0770cf, it is a completely different story.

Is ZT marketing their knives for light use now? I must have missed it. I'm not telling anyone what to do. No need to take my views as anything more than my own opinions. Everyone is free to do what they want. I made some observations and people are getting defensive. No need to justify anything. Everyone should do what they want YMMV etc etc

 

[Scurvy092]

Is ZT marketing their knives for light use now? I must have missed it. I'm not telling anyone what to do. No need to take my views as anything more than my own opinions. Everyone is free to do what they want. I made some observations and people are getting defensive. No need to justify anything. Everyone should do what they want YMMV etc etc

They are just filling out their lineup. Did you read the entire thread?

 

[Fanglekai]

They are just filling out their lineup. Did you read the entire thread?

I read the entire thread and then commented. This thread isn't about me, so let's keep it on topic please and thank you. "Discuss the topic, not each other."

 

[Steel130]

I just want to know what the definition of hard use is? Honestly. I could carry a Blur 365 days of the year and not feel under gunned. And I use my knives.

 

[Kai Corp.]

Perspective and understanding go a long way in discussions like this.

I’d like to address the short runs with new designs, and the variations/boutique production with existing product, along with some history and generality.

The ZT brand is a fairly young brand that currently has a limited amount of patterns that are available. It becomes challenging when you are trying to grow and produce a new brand like ZT while maintaining and evolving a mature brand like Kershaw. Throw in Shun, Pure Komachi, and the Houswares side, and mix it with our URI (Old Spice, Noxema, Kasho, etc&#8230 beauty care portion of our business, and it gets complex very quickly.

With this complexity comes expectations from the consumer. Zero Tolerance is our smallest brand, and produces the least amount of profit within the organization. At the same time, it, Shun, and Kasho (http://www.kasho-usa.com/), are the most difficult and time consuming to produce. This is important for your understanding.

When it comes to ZT design direction, the intention was never for it to be a specialty brand that played in one genre. Originally we felt that the overbuilt folder genre would be a good category to use in launching the brand. In many cases, to be successful with a new brand you have to invest heavily on the launch, and hope popularity will eventually take over. The overbuilt folders did what we hoped they would do, and ZT became a brand in our little marketplace. We were happy, as that in itself can be a lot of time, effort, and money, with no guarantee.

With the foundation in place, we were now able to better concentrate on taking the ZT brand and filling it out to our vision. Our vision was not to be CRK’s and/or Strideresque like with our identity. No, our vision was much wider and diverse in what we could deliver, and how we wanted to be identified as a brand. Our vision was to have a wide variety of flavors, makers, genres, etc. so that we could share and have interest from users and enthusiasts from all walks to enjoy. This is how we felt we could expand and leap past those that specialize, and capture the true variety that the spectrum of the knife world has to offer.

Zero Tolerance the brand will never produce itself into a corner and be known for just one style. It will blossom into and be known for many strengths with design. We only need but more time so to carry out our vision.

As of today, there are both collector pieces and there are users. in both cases there can be limited production. Some folks like to use there knives in either case. They are both designed to do so. With the brand popularity secondary prices are starting to move. Discontinued product, as well as LE are seeing strong movements. This is a good thing for the brand. Again, there will be diversity within the brand. Each piece we produce wont always be for you, but they will be for someone. Try not to confuse our direction with your preferences. We understand that there are those originals out there that want more overbuilt, and while we've fed you in the past, you're looking for more. To that I say give it time. We have not, and will never abandon that genre.

The brand is still establishing itself, and the best is yet to come.

Thanks for the understanding.

 

[RevDevil]

Something tells me when the 0777 was designed, they didn't envision a guy in the wild carving wood, or a grunt prying apart a supply crate. I never once said they weren't tough, just that they weren't designed with the duties of say an 0300 in mind. If you were being dropped in the middle of the woods and your two choices for a knife were an 0454 and an 0300, can you honestly say you'd choose to leave the 0300 behind?

If you read my follow up responses, what I'm saying is I'm somewhat worried that if it weren't for Rick Hinderer's designs, ZT would be abandoning development in the US made no frills practical rugged knife market. Instead lots of practical KAI designs are being pushed off to the cheap import market. That's great for the people who buy budget knives, but the guys like me looking to spend $250'ish on a rugged knife (in function and looks) are pretty much left with only Hinderers for new designs while everyone else gets attention. My concern is that the very model ZT was built on is slowly dying off.

Well, I do not have any experience using the 0454. I do own and have used the 030x series for a while. It seems like people get upset when a company releases a nice limited run knife, with exotic materials and blade steel. All of a sudden the brqnd is in jeapordy and the company is on the verge of irreversible change. The fact is, change is what brought about ZT in the first place. I don't see the problem with a company making limited runs of collaborations. People learn new things when they collaborate with others.

As far as being worried goes, it does no good to worry about things you cannot control. You are not being forced to buy any knife, and if something is priced out of your reach, then start saving. The 0200, 0350, & 0300 series is alive and well. Personally, I try not to worry about things I have no control of. Just buy what you like, don't over think things too much.

 

[Kai Corp.]

Collectible objects by design ...
This isn't limited to knives or ZT. It's a business plan used all over to generate revenue and satisfy collectors. Nothing wrong with that. It makes people happy and makes the company money.

Unfortunately for us Fanglekai, these short runs do not make us money, and ultimately are losers on an income statement. We realize this when we even start the concept conversation. While this may go against today's business grain, we do them today, and will continue to do them tomorrow, not to make money, but to drive eyes onto the brand, give opportunity to our dealers, and get flagship pieces on the marketplace and into the hands of users and collectors alike.

 

[stabman]

I don't like all the designs, but I see enough that I do like for sure.

 

[Scurvy092]

Unfortunately for us Fanglekai, these short runs do not make us money, and ultimately are losers on an income statement. We realize this when we even start the concept conversation. While this may go against today's business grain, we do them today, and will continue to do them tomorrow, not to make money, but to drive eyes onto the brand, give opportunity to our dealers, and get flagship pieces on the marketplace and into the hands of users and collectors alike.

Thank you for clarifying.

I bet these people also think that Bugatti must make a ton of money on each Veyron they sell because the car costs over a million dollars when in reality, I believe they lose almost $300,000 on every one they make.

The term in the auto industry is 'Halo Car'.

 

[Kai Corp.]

I don't like all the designs, but I see enough that I do like for sure.

And I for one, appreciate the comment. It's like this with every brand. You don't like or even understand every pattern produced. As long as there is perspective as to the fact that brands are not making every knife in their line-up for you the individual. They are producing a line-up for all individuals.

 

[Fanglekai]

Unfortunately for us Fanglekai, these short runs do not make us money, and ultimately are losers on an income statement. We realize this when we even start the concept conversation. While this may go against today's business grain, we do them today, and will continue to do them tomorrow, not to make money, but to drive eyes onto the brand, give opportunity to our dealers, and get flagship pieces on the marketplace and into the hands of users and collectors alike.

Well obviously. It's basic marketing. Limited edition pieces might lose money in the short term but the exposure/publicity/desire/"buzz" they generate should offset the short term "one time" losses by increased sales over the long term (sustained growth, outreach into new markets, etc). They generate interest (gaining new customers) and satisfy collectors (maintaining existing customers and gaining new customers). People talked about the 0777 for years before it was released. That's a large, sustained amount of "buzz" that drives sales of existing product in the interim while new short-term, limited quantity product that will take a loss is created. I'd imagine KAI made a profit overall.

Again, this isn't negative. Tons of companies do this. It satisfies collectors and drives overall product sales growth. So, overall, as I said, ZT makes a profit from the collector's pieces even if the company sustains "one time" losses in producing that particular product. I thought the point was obvious so I wasn't going to go into detail but here we are.

I'd love to see pictures and video of 0777s being used hard or at least used, but the last time I checked youtube I found nothing but a ton of unboxing videos I'm curious about the performance of the Vanax steel, but sadly I haven't seen much user generated data.