Exactly. A good base material that is handled and treated properly!
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Axe steel choices, why are most low carbon?
- Thread starter Sid Post
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Agreed.
They could be taking C55 and adding some small amount of alloy. Other European makers just use the C55 or even C50 straight. C55 is a recycled steel with properties similar to 1055.
There's nothing wrong with a recycled steel if it's done right. But that involves some testing of the individual batch. If the recycler only guesses what % of the input is toasters and car fenders and what % is lawnmower blades and leaf spring then they can get into trouble.
I've seen recycled rebar where they never even heated it enough to homogenize the product. I've literally seen old nuts and bolts in the product. Imagine if such a product was used to make an axe.
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Cheap hardware store axes aren't stamped. They're drop-forged in 99% of all cases, which still produces grain flow like the method Gransfors uses. Again, the issue is heat treat. And in some of the worst cases the steel itself really is suspect, but that's most likely to be absolute bottom-of-the-barrel off-brand stuff.
As far as custom pours go, Gransfors is probably calling it "special" in that it's not a graded process and is unique to their supplier rather than it being something specially formulated just for their purposes. Busse's INFI is probably A8mod chipper blade steel, which is normally only available in very thick sections inappropriate for knives, and then having it sliced into knife stock via wire EDM, which isn't the cheapest method around, but the one most appropriate for making thinner sections of that steel, hence the high cost and limited availability.
Makes about as much sense as using a higher carbon content steel as a selling point. GB doesn't need to add anything as a selling point. They make a good hard steel axe and most know this. They also stand behind that heat treat. Sounds like you should have bought one and then this thread doesn't exist.
An alloy is added for a reason and without knowing what has been added you are just speculating, nothing more.
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The metal itself is an alloy; it's not added. Alloying elements are added to create an alloy--that simply being a combination of 2 or more metallic elements. In the case of steel, most medium carbon spring steels principally have silicon and manganese added to them, together totaling more than the 1% threshold that's usually used as defining "alloy steel".
While it's speculation, true, we know that they are making use of recycled steel, and are probably combining different medium carbon steels, so there may also be other trace amounts of miscellaneous common alloying elements like chromium or nickel, but probably not so much as to have a significant impact on the final product in terms of this application. Chromium is often lost to some degree to slag formation during re-melt along with some carbon and silicon, while nickel and manganese mostly remain in the the steel, so of those alloying elements present we can make some informed guesses about what the end result is like. However, this is something that a big recycling company like Ovako is able to monitor and grade for. It's very unlikely that the end result used by Gransfors is significantly different from other steels used commonly for axes, chiefly because there's not much need for it to be, even if we disregard what circumstantial info we've received from Gransfors themselves and former employees.
True, steel is the alloy and elements are added and not for nothing.
What we do know minus the speculation and hearsay is that it is a relatively simple steel. I think the water quench confirms this.
I really am out of this conversation now.
I don't think this thread is going to age that well for some here.
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Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but okay. All that's been stated this whole time over the course of 4 pages is consistently that you don't need fancy steel to achieve a hardness that balances edge stability, resiliency, and ease of sharpening in axes.True, steel is the alloy and elements are added and not for nothing.
What we do know minus the speculation and hearsay is that it is a relatively simple steel. I think the water quench confirms this.
I really am out of this conversation now.
I don't think this thread is going to age that well for some here.
That's been true for as long as we've had modern clean steel production methods and known grades. The state of the material today is such that obtaining consistent qualities in our steel is not difficult, and we can source steel interchangeably from multiple sources so long as the grade remains specified, or if the grade is changed the best known protocols are used in its processing into a final product. Historically there was a lot more variability in quality and composition from source to source so quality of the steel itself was a bigger issue than it is today. Today the complaint made by the OP is less about the raw material, and more about how it's been processed to meet the manufacturer's perceived requirements. Those requirements are influenced by a number of factors, including but not limited to the lowest common denominator of skill and care exercised by their user base and the higher priority on resilience and ease of sharpening over edge retention that dynamic creates.
I have seen some 420 stainless axes and hatchets. I doubt they were drop forged. I have also seen some carbon steel axes with obvious pour marks or cast lines that weren't drop forged. Then there are the ones with obvious grind marks on them too.
My Newt Livesay/Wicked Knives 1095 knife has rust resistance far beyond my expectations and held a good edge like a demon during hard usage. While I really like this knife a lot, I don't stress it like I would an axe head and doubt it would hold up to that kind of stress.
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Drop forgings have a seam on them where the dies join. Many folks confuse this for casting mold lines, but this is not the case. The only stamped axes you're going to find are the flat hunter's hatchet types that are really more like axe-shaped knives, and even then most of those are laser-cut, not stamped, and the stock they were originally cut from does have grain from when it was rolled, it's just not grain conforming to the shape of the tool as it would be in a forged product. Castings do exist in some small quantity, and don't have grain flow to them, but for the overwhelming majority of them they're made using modern casting methods that result in a tool that's still more than capable of performing well. However, stock removal flat axes and any form of cast stainless are not going to be found in most hardware stores. Casting is nevertheless not the same thing as stamping, and stamped tools do still have a form of grain flow to them.
According to Wiki, high carbon steel runs in the range of .6 to 1% carbon. Higher levels of carbon are ultra high carbon steel. I have always followed this classification. I have an old Kukri made from recycled leaf springs. It is differentialy hardened with a very hard edge. I have used this “knife” for years in the yard, and have been amazed at how well it holds an edge. The steel is obviously not “fancy” but the heat treatment was right on. I don’t know how many hours it was used to cut out saplings, but it will still shave. I have never had to resharpen it. My guess is that it is no fancier than 1060 or 5160. I have gotten lazy and now usually use a reciprocating saw with a pruning blade for cutting out small trees.
It's not really the steel that's important. Rather, it's the heat treatment and design that are more important for axes, hatchets, and 'hawks.
I have a couple of 2Hawks tomahawks. These are 6150 cast ingots with everything that doesn't look like a 'hawk ground away. 6150 is
basically 5160 with a bit of vanadium, and a bit less carbon. It's plenty tough, and still holds a very good edge.
I have a couple of 2Hawks tomahawks. These are 6150 cast ingots with everything that doesn't look like a 'hawk ground away. 6150 is
basically 5160 with a bit of vanadium, and a bit less carbon. It's plenty tough, and still holds a very good edge.
I've thought about this myself, and honestly I'd like to see 80crv2 axe heads... seems the best mix, you can get it hard 60-61 with a tough temper
then it's still great with files (good ones easily 64+ ish)
you can get a great small grain structure thanks to the vanadium ... (if the ht is done well)
I'm likely spoiled due to how well 80crv2 is done with a skrama : )
side note, fwiw - 6150 doesn't seem to have any vanadium -> just a bit more chrome, and less carbon -> http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=5160,6150
then it's still great with files (good ones easily 64+ ish)
you can get a great small grain structure thanks to the vanadium ... (if the ht is done well)
I'm likely spoiled due to how well 80crv2 is done with a skrama : )
side note, fwiw - 6150 doesn't seem to have any vanadium -> just a bit more chrome, and less carbon -> http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=5160,6150
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It does contain vanadium. Just very little: 0.15 to 0.3% for helping to refine grain structure.
zknives says it doesn't have any, and it normally reports even 0.1% amounts... so the 'spec' for 6150 does not say anything about it
if the reality is that it contains some despite the spec not saying so, then it's interesting
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Yeah I'm not sure why the zknives entry says it doesn't have any but if you look up the composition on basically any steel supplier website it all has 0.15-.30 % listed as spec.
yup, good points - it is there ... listed as 0.15% or greater on this page
"German" is a bit wide.
What american hardwoods are you hitting?
For example: Dr.Reissinger with the help of an Engineer said in his 1959 Study that the Iltis keeps its edge in -20°C hitting Beech. Im taking this since its the only source i know that is authorative. Just too much guessing and "maybe saying" in the web.
I have a Müller Biber 800 g, Putzhacke 1200 g, Tiroler Asthacke 1000 g all filed 14° ~25 mm wide. I only hit Spruce and Larch. Butni tried on a dry Spruce and a semi dry Cherry at 45° angle at full power and i get no bending or chipping. (With 1 mm Microbevel "rolled")
I have aswell a Prandi Dayton 900 g (2LB) at 14°. The thing bend, but only because i foolishly levered in a cut.
I watched aswell that Ben Scotts video and he shows his Ochsenkopf at 16° even bend ,still!
So as others in this thread have said, Ochsenkopf i dont recommend anymore aswell.
Their "Iltis" is, as they told me and sent me a phot per email, is 11 mm thick 80 mm from the edge.
The original Reissinger Iltis is 4,9 mm in 1949.
(Depending on Blade lenght: Müller is 7 mm, the thinnest massproduced available today (but i dont have a Rinaldi axe yet,idk if they are even thinner))
What american hardwoods are you hitting?
For example: Dr.Reissinger with the help of an Engineer said in his 1959 Study that the Iltis keeps its edge in -20°C hitting Beech. Im taking this since its the only source i know that is authorative. Just too much guessing and "maybe saying" in the web.
I have a Müller Biber 800 g, Putzhacke 1200 g, Tiroler Asthacke 1000 g all filed 14° ~25 mm wide. I only hit Spruce and Larch. Butni tried on a dry Spruce and a semi dry Cherry at 45° angle at full power and i get no bending or chipping. (With 1 mm Microbevel "rolled")
I have aswell a Prandi Dayton 900 g (2LB) at 14°. The thing bend, but only because i foolishly levered in a cut.
I watched aswell that Ben Scotts video and he shows his Ochsenkopf at 16° even bend ,still!
So as others in this thread have said, Ochsenkopf i dont recommend anymore aswell.
Their "Iltis" is, as they told me and sent me a phot per email, is 11 mm thick 80 mm from the edge.
The original Reissinger Iltis is 4,9 mm in 1949.
(Depending on Blade lenght: Müller is 7 mm, the thinnest massproduced available today (but i dont have a Rinaldi axe yet,idk if they are even thinner))
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For German axes, I generally think of Ochsenkopf and Helko. I try to differentiate German from Austrian for example when talking about things generally.
The most common hardwood is "Live Oak". I also have a lot of Cedar and other pines that I prune back. Sweet Gum and other trees are also encountered some.
https://wisementrading.com/wood-working/muller/
I am really interested in the Austrian Stubai valley Müller axes. How good are they in hardwoods with something other than a thick edge?
That Ochsenkopf comment is consistent with my experience in both the "Ox" branded axes and the Stihl OEM axes from Ochsenkopf. I actually find the ~$35USD Stihl branded Ochsenkopf small axes to be very good values and hold up well to my normal uses for them such as light splitting for my BBQ smoker and cutting ~5cm/2" trees that aren't too flexible.
You make me want to try a Müller from the Austrian Stubai valley. That thinner profile sounds like a really good option for me assuming the axe head is sufficiently hard to hold a good edge when not overly obtuse (i.e. retaining the thin general profile).