BAD- [strike]MeatyBacchus478[/strike] frankp

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WoodenChicken said:
We may not always agree, but most of us are here to share information on knives. We are knife enthusiasts who sometimes buy, sell or trade. Frankp (who now sleeps with the fishes) came here not to be a contributing member, but to buy and sell (see his top areas of posting). When greed is your motive, you will do anything, even destroy your reputation. The mods acted like heroes, IMO, and sent him packing where he couldn't do more harm. I like this place even more now.
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Sorry guys but I need to put my two cents into this. If you look into my most common post areas are in buy/sell areas but that does not mean I'm here just for that. To generalize and criminilize everyone like that is not good. I am a very active Canadian member and I have the pleasure to interact with many local and nation members privately via email not via forums about knives and things. I have met great people by buying and selling knives here.
Why do I not post in other more informative areas in the forums? Because I am not an expert and I have learned A LOT by listening rather than talking. If I had to count, I think I talk to like 5-7 different members via either text, email or Skype every day about knives and other stuff. I am always trying to help and grow the Canadian community. Damn now most of my guys at work are carrying EDC LOL it is awesome!! Should I post more in other areas of the forums? Maybe but If I choose not to it doesn't mean I am a bad person or a person not worthy of my membership here. Even when I was debating about upgrading my membership I had a discussion with Canadian Ron about the different levels . we discussed an entire day about it. I opted to get the gold but I wanted and most likely will get Platinum next not because I need it but to cooperate the website.
 
The comment that frankp made about the membership levels something come on guys agree with someone with a real membership really pissed me off. I know some great great local knife guys that are basic registered members here but for example Eric D here in Hamilton I trust him every one of my knives to sharpen. The guy is top notch professional and he is only 19. To say stupid things like that about a basic or registered member is just soooooooooo F'ed it makes my blood boil. Membership levels here are not something you deserve or gain by tremendous effort, one click in my PayPal buys me any .... ANY REAL MEMBERSHIP???? Just ridicolous frankp said that
 
I think both Karda and Rev Devil handled this thread in an extremely professional manner. To insinuate otherwise is poppycock. The only person responsible for frankp being banned is frankp himself. Meat asked for a refund. Frank instead returned the knife, risking it yet again to damage or loss in transit to Meat, and potentially in transit to the maker, Meat's only other recourse, or transit BACK to Frank if Meat refused the package. All the while, Meat still doesn't have his money or a knife. And, having paid via paypal gift, no recourse to recoup it either. And I believe that Frank knew this the entire time.

People like that are not needed nor wanted at BFC. This is a community, not a swap meet. And the moderators have a thankless job, especially here in GBU where money and property is at stake, as are reputations.
 
Pete1977 said:
I think both Karda and Rev Devil handled this thread in an extremely professional manner. To insinuate otherwise is poppycock. The only person responsible for frankp being banned is frankp himself. Meat asked for a refund. Frank instead returned the knife, risking it yet again to damage or loss in transit to Meat, and potentially in transit to the maker, Meat's only other recourse, or transit BACK to Frank if Meat refused the package. All the while, Meat still doesn't have his money or a knife. And, having paid via paypal gift, no recourse to recoup it either. And I believe that Frank knew this the entire time.
People like that are not needed nor wanted at BFC. This is a community, not a swap meet. And the moderators have a thankless job, especially here in GBU where money and property is at stake, as are reputations.
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Well said. I could not agree more.

Mods, thank you for all you do here to keep the forum running smoothly and honestly. It is a thankless task and one you perform with fairness and good spirit.
 
FrankP buried himself. To imply that the moderators influenced the masses is ridiculous . I am actually glad Karda specifically went out of his way to turn up the heat after he realized there was not going to be a refund. He was in the right and it really didn't matter in the end anyway because FrankP sent the knife back. I also am still blown away that a man could come on the forum and rant about oil being on his knife and that is why he didn't refund. And all this talk about breaking down the knife to clean was utter BS . He's a clown and I'm glad he's gone.
 
I only read the first two pages, but it seems like the two problems were fixable. Oil can be wiped off, and Sharpie can be wiped off if you apply Expo marker to it. The chemicals in Expo cancel out the chemicals in Sharpie, making it easy to remove. What a huge mess for something so simple!
 
jdm666 said:
Hi Karda

Unfortunate that we would need to "meet" under these circumstances. I certainly hope I would not face threats or reprisals for having a dissenting position - and I have not seen any yet nor do I expect to.

While I appreciate that you view my opionions as rhetoric, I certainly don't. Having been in a good many situations such as this (as a buyer, seller, and moderator) I would have preferred to have seen as little public intervention from moderators as possible.

While I wholeheartedly feel that you have a job to do to ensure the forum is "safe" from thieves and predators - any time you take a public stand as to the culpability or guilt of a member on the forum it is tantamount to passing a judgment that most individuals will not argue against.

Given that you have/had such strong opinions on the conduct of frankp, IMHO these would have been best communicated to him in private either through email or PM.

As mentioned previously, while Meaty actualy spoke up for frankp's past behaviuor learned through previous dealings of the two, you chose to publicly call into question the honesty of frankp - whether it was on Meaty behalf or not - it is at that point that public opinion on the matter shifted almost fully against the seller. It has always been my understanding that moderators were here to ensure that topics such stayed on point - and there be as little rhetoric and mudslinging as possible - not to provide new points on which to continue the argument and vilify the participants.

In general I feel you guys do a fantastic job policing the forum - as it were - however in this case, for whatever reason, I personally feel you went a little over board.

Anyways, it's obvious to me that this horse is long dead - so I will quit beating it - I can only hope a little of my rhetoric sinks in.

JD
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I am in the camp that agrees with this poster, albeit a small campsite. I do agree that the mods do a very good and somewhat thankless job here. I also believe that a possible title change would clear up some problems, Moderator/Mediator, as some of both takes place in many threads on this forum. I have always viewed moderators as policemen versus judges, keeping things in line without taking sides.
 
All around an unpleasant situation. My 0.02

I would be annoyed if someone drenched one of my knives in oil. Especially if there is disassembly required to get the oil off or if the oil discolored the knife. I'd say oiling the knife was a mistake.

However

I would be extremely annoyed if a seller refused to refund a purchase. These are unique objects. The buyer should be allowed to inspect the item and return it no-questions-asked if it does not meet expectation. It is OK to expect the buyer to share in shipping costs. It is not OK to call all-sales-are-final on mail order purchases.
 
jvan said:
I am in the camp that agrees with this poster, albeit a small campsite. I do agree that the mods do a very good and somewhat thankless job here. I also believe that a possible title change would clear up some problems, Moderator/Mediator, as some of both takes place in many threads on this forum. I have always viewed moderators as policemen versus judges, keeping things in line without taking sides.
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Most of the time our job varies, but is that of a policeman so to speak.
We move threads, we advise, we mediate arguments, we keep things on topic and on track.
We try to remain objective and hope that posters will be adult enough to think for themselves and resolve issues on their own in a mutually amicable manner.
Just like a policeman, we are armed. We do make judgment calls according to the situation and use our tools wisely.
You and the poster you quoted may have particular views on what a moderators job should be here, but I would suggest that you take time to read the FAQ and terms of service you agreed to by registering an account here.

In this particular instance, it would have been very simple for frankp to refund the money as he agreed to do in the first place, wipe the oil off and remove the sharpie that was there when he sent it (which also wasn't disclosed to the buyer at time of sale) and properly and pessimistically relisted the knife for sale. The refunded buyer would've been happy and frank could've continued as a member here.

Instead he chose a silly argument that the blade was ruined because of the oil and that meat had defaced the knife with sharpie. He further went on to make other accusations without evidence to back them up. When asked to provide certain things he was evasive, argumentative and non compliant..... believe it or not, a user can be removed from this site for simply lying to a moderator. He then decided to ignore all the advice given here and moderator instruction to settle this in a fair manner. He held not only the buyers money, but the knife itself hostage pending capitulation to his requests. This is not how we operate here. Then he decided to thumb his nose at everyone here and the forum itself and force the buyer to take back the knife, reneging on his offer of refund.

frankp was given plenty of advice and chances to do the proper thing. In the end he chose the improper advice of others.
He really left the moderators no choice but to remove his membership so that this type of thing will not happen in the future.
 
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Man I'm glad ya booted him, Frank sounded like whiny little girl, I hope I never have to deal with someone like that.
 
what other buyers and sellers should take away from this thread.
SELLER:1.Always describe item correctly and inspect item
2.Make sure your buyer is happy
3.Listen to the community if there is a problem
BUYER:
1.Never pay with GIFT option especially unsolicited
2.Inspect item VERY well before sending the "all clear"
3.Never alter the knife in ANY way before sending for a return.

oh and don't lie to the mods :)
 
Karda ,

You did what needed to be done. I didn't want frankp to swim with the fishies. I know you really didn't either. You have to do whats right for the whole . I truly believe you did.

James
 
Thanks for the kind words folks. We really don't try to be bullies, but we aren't going to put up with BS for longer than necessary either. There are always choices available to us, we can chose to do something or nothing at all, still it is a choice.

Pellel2 said:
Sorry guys but I need to put my two cents into this. If you look into my most common post areas are in buy/sell areas but that does not mean I'm here just for that. To generalize and criminilize everyone like that is not good. I am a very active Canadian member and I have the pleasure to interact with many local and nation members privately via email not via forums about knives and things. I have met great people by buying and selling knives here.
Why do I not post in other more informative areas in the forums? Because I am not an expert and I have learned A LOT by listening rather than talking. If I had to count, I think I talk to like 5-7 different members via either text, email or Skype every day about knives and other stuff. I am always trying to help and grow the Canadian community. Damn now most of my guys at work are carrying EDC LOL it is awesome!! Should I post more in other areas of the forums? Maybe but If I choose not to it doesn't mean I am a bad person or a person not worthy of my membership here. Even when I was debating about upgrading my membership I had a discussion with Canadian Ron about the different levels . we discussed an entire day about it. I opted to get the gold but I wanted and most likely will get Platinum next not because I need it but to cooperate the website.
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Pellel,

Bladeforums is much more than just the Exchange. Some people do not realize that or have no interest in that. There are a lot of people that want to simply buy/sell/trade and leave the discussion to others. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. But when it is at the expense of the community and that behavior turns into something more than a casual selling and buying experience, then we have something different on our hands. No one is criminalizing the matter, you just haven't been around long enough or paid enough attention to what the real issue is.

Again, different people see us in different aspects. Some folks hate our guts, others like the fact that we try to help out when something isn't right. I don't get any payment, commission, or other incentives from members with problems here. I assure you of this. Another thing that can be taken away from these threads, if done with the intent to defraud or deceive these threads can absolutely blow up in your face. We've seen it time and time again from new people to paid dealers to chronic knife flippers. Honesty is the best way to approach these topics.
 
I am a new member and have read every post from Frank's first assertion to his not unexpected demise. I am a member of other forums and have to say the mods here act with great restraint. I have been a mod elsewhere and had I been here Franks ass would have been grass long before it actually happened. Very educational for a new member.
 
Karda said:
Much the same as our friend here, Kang didn't have much to do with the rest of the forum outside the exchange except to ingratiate and predate.
Most of the exchange rules you now see are a result of his actions:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...n-is-enough-well-enough?p=9953927#post9953927
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...when-is-enough-well-enough?highlight=liu+kang
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concreteadaptation said:
i think comparing a person who disagrees with a buyer over a single purchase (even with attitude) to a person who took advantage of people on here for years with impunity until he basically fleeced a down and out war vet and blade forums finally had to pay attention and ban him a gross exaggeration. Really, no middle ground for people to make mistakes now? liu hang had to have more than a few threads started and stopped about him before banning so lets not get too hasty.
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I agree... I don't think a person should be judged by where the majority of his post are made. I call that judging a book by it's cover. Most of my post are in sales or trades threads, simply because when you post in threads like this one, you tend to get judged pretty harshly on your view or opinion and I don't like to be part of all that drama. That being said... I think both parties here have made significant mistakes. While oiling a blade really has no issue, it's not how the knife was sent out to the buyer and should've been returned in that state back to the seller if a refund is what he wanted after viewing the knife. I think Frankp's offer to send it back to Jake and cover all necessary cost is a fair deal considering the knife was not sent back to him as he previously shipped.
I just had a similar incident on another forum where I made a sells post an in-accurately described the item. I immediately refunded the seller his money plus shipping and he sent the knife back in the SAME condition it was sent to him. No harm, no foul. This however is a different situation.
I hope the two parties in here can come to some kind of agreement. I think handling it amongst each other away from all the comments in this thread would be a good start. Truth be told, sometimes being the bigger person means putting your pride aside and doing things you don't feel are right but are necessary to resolve conflict. After all, that shows maturity and integrity on a whole different level. Right or wrong, one of you is gonna have to agree to something you may not like in order to bring this to a happy conclusion... Who will that be??
 
Karda said:
You mean something like a "profiteer" level membership?
I think the dealer level isn't even appropriate for these type people. My opinion.

This forum is about community and information. The exchange is incidental.
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If that's the case then why do you only require paid memberships to post in the sale section?? Why not charge everyone to be a part of this community??
 
Not sure if anyone noticed, but the person whom frankp purchased the A8 from, clearly indicated in his sales post that it was "flipped quiet a bit". frankp stated in his opening post that the knife was "brand new". :-(
 
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