Bark River Knives... Heat Treat, Edge Retention and A2???

[tiogatires]

I begin this post looking for some info and it would seem the I got a lot of warranty information (which is appreciated) and only a small amount of personal experience detailing my original queries. I'm not new to knives. I felt that the asking price of the knife I ordered warranted some constructive experiences, many of which I found outside of this site.

Question:

Has things with their warranty service gotten better? Are the grinds getting more even on the knives? Or is all of this a recurring theme with their company?

 

[meanwhile]

I'm afraid that if you look in this thread

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,814,page=1

..the dates are all pretty recent.

A small knife maker that seems to be taking a lot of business that BKRT have lost is Blind Horse Knives:

http://www.blindhorseknives.com/

I've not ordered from them myself and I don't know if they make knives in A2. Personally if I was ordering a Bravo sized knife I'd go for a Swamp Rat or Esee (or be VERY cheap and get an MTech.) 'Rat and Esee have unimpeachable warranties. Or if I might pick up an Enzo blade and handle it myself - but again, it wouldn't be A2.

 

[Karda]

Discuss the topic not each other. This will be the only warning before infractions ensue.

 

[tiogatires]

Did I do something wrong here?

 

[chiral.grolim]

Did I do something wrong here?

Nope, your good.

BRKT is a contentious company due to customer experiences. I would put forth a few things regarding the Bravo 1.5

1) The knife is very pretty, BRKT seems to invest a lot of time/effort into presentation
2) The handle (same as on the Bravo 1) is very slick, round, and straight, which makes retention poor in extended or gloved use and adverse conditions. You'll need to cut grooves in it or roughen it up something fierce, and even then there are better handle designs to choose from.
3) The thumb ramp is a design flaw that should have been phased out before the 1.5 was ever released.
4) As others have mentioned, you may need to remove the edge and resharpen it as apparently quite a few specimens have been ground too thin or had "burnt" edges.
5) The stock is quite thick which reduces performance in certain cutting tasks
6) How much are you going to pay? You may be able to get a similar-size knife of better design from another company or even a custom maker (like on the exchange HERE... ? Don't limit yourself to one company if you don't have too, there are SO many great blades to choose from!

Good luck! :thumbup:

 

[RUNIT]

While I have no beef with BRKT I understand the disdain for Mr Stewart and the Bark River crew. I have piped up on their forum regarding a production sheath that was for the Bravo1 and was a poor design. The thread eventually got locked and then deleted just like all threads on their forum that are not all sunshine and rainbows. They do make some pretty looking knives just nothing I will ever buy again. There has been many complaints regarding chipping and rolling of the A2 steel, they have just all been deleted. And yes the warranty is just a regrind and a laugh of now it is a "custom".

 

[meanwhile]

2) The handle (same as on the Bravo 1) is very slick, round, and straight, which makes retention poor in extended or gloved use and adverse conditions. You'll need to cut grooves in it or roughen it up something fierce, and even then there are better handle designs to choose from.

..But this might not be too bad if you get a canvas micarta handled knife - it's grippy stuff and gets grippier when wet. I'd stay away from wood, paper micarta and G10 though.

 

[tiogatires]

Despite the bad press, I am still really fond o the design of the 1.5 and am looking forward to receiving it. I will, however be giving it a thorough examination prior to use though in case of return.

One thing I am curious of though and maybe you can all shed some light on it without being to opinionated. Mods if this is an inappropriate question just let me know, but due to the overwhelming amount of information given to me I have to ask...

How/when did he switch or start up Bark River Knife and Tool? I'm asking since I have had such positive experiences with other makers here in the forums that I question how he stays in business if his products are as bad as some of you say they are. We are enthusiasts willing to pay premiums for design, material and purpose while most wouldn't spend that much on a knife they may use occasionally. Despite some of his "poor" business desicions, are the products all that bad in reality? Serious question here as I just dropped a decent wad of cheddar and am beginning to think I made a mistake even as I really like the knife.

 

[evildick]

I do not own any Bark River knives but hope to someday when I am making a little more money.

When a large company makes mass quanties of anything there are always going to be mistakes. Fact is humans are not perfect so between the makers and the quality control people and the shipping people bad stuff will get thru.

People act as if Mike Stewart himself makes and inspects and ships every knife made. I am sure he does not just a Henry Ford did not personally make every single car and truck that was produced.

Mike Stewart of Bark River has lead a life of making knives. He makes a well-made knife. It’s as good as anybody’s knife. If you buy one I am sure you will be happy and if not call them up and discuss what really is going on and I know he will be fair. If you start cussing and yelling, just like most everybody else he will probably tell you to screw off.

I feel A2 is a great knife steel.

If a man is given the Medal of Honor for the rest of his life he will be rewarded and called a hero. He will not feel like a hero but it will stick with him forever rather he likes it or not.
If a man is convicted of being a felon he will always be called a felon. He will not feel like one because life has went on from the time that person made a mistake but it will always stick to him. It is the nature of the world. He has to accept that it will never be forgotten and he has to deal with it every day for the rest of his life.

Being a hero or a felon does not make you a lifetime good or bad person.

We as a nation has to wake up every day and always look for the good in people no matter what they have done. Good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things.

As an 18 year old kid I committed a dumb crime and was a considered a felon for many years. In my 20's it got expunged but people still call me one and the cops still try to mess with me but I am a good person in general and have went on with my life.

I would rather buy a knife from a crook who is keeping jobs here in America than a clean business man who ships 100 jobs overseas to have it made cheaper. If you ask me anybody who has their knives made in China is giving aid to the enemy and deserves to be punished because one day a china man is going to shoot my son with bullets paid for by so called smart American Business men.

 

[meanwhile]

Despite the bad press, I am still really fond o the design of the 1.5 and am looking forward to receiving it. I will, however be giving it a thorough examination prior to use though in case of return.

One thing I am curious of though and maybe you can all shed some light on it without being to opinionated. Mods if this is an inappropriate question just let me know, but due to the overwhelming amount of information given to me I have to ask...

How/when did he switch or start up Bark River Knife and Tool? I'm asking since I have had such positive experiences with other makers here in the forums that I question how he stays in business if his products are as bad as some of you say they are. We are enthusiasts willing to pay premiums for design, material and purpose while most wouldn't spend that much on a knife they may use occasionally. Despite some of his "poor" business desicions, are the products all that bad in reality? Serious question here as I just dropped a decent wad of cheddar and am beginning to think I made a mistake even as I really like the knife.

Some brands of knife are bought by people who use them, others.. not. BKRT is probably the most extreme example of the second. It's the basis of their aesthetics driven marketing strategy with that huge range of handle materials, most of which don't work nearly as well micarta. The only thing they don't offer is the one thing you can argue works better than micarta on choppers - rubber. That's telling too. I remember one guy telling me he bought his Bravo to practice making fires in his backyard - which meant he used it waaaay more than most BRs get used in his opinion.

But even allowing for the problems with BRs, the odds are against your getting a bad knife - at least in A2.

 

[evildick]

A2 is an awesome tool steel. As a maintiance Machinist I use A2 a lot. I have a lot of respect for it and I have to really watch my feed rates and speeds on A2 or bad stuff happens.

A2 is a very smart steel to use. In the now and the future there are a lot of cool steels coming out that can pass it but for its time it is a very smart steel to use.

 

[Street Samurai1978]

I have a BRKT golok and Bravo 2. Both perform extremely well. The smooth handles may put some people off, but I've had no problems. The A2 corrosion isn't a problem, as I use Tufcloth. So far, not a spot of rust. Plenty of scrathces, as I use my stuff. No chipping, so far. Looking forward to getting a Bravo 2.5 when they get made.

 

[RevDevil]

Oh Lawd, not the chop stick video againz!

 

[lambertiana]

I have owned and used a few different models in A2, with mixed results. Some have performed quite well, while one had what I can only characterize as catastrophic edge rolling that made it look like it was made out of aluminum foil.

The return of that knife for warranty service and subsequent communications with MS soured me completely on the brand....

 

[Dan57]

Despite some of his "poor" business desicions, are the products all that bad in reality? Serious question here as I just dropped a decent wad of cheddar and am beginning to think I made a mistake even as I really like the knife.

The majority of the products they put out are gorgeous looking and fantastically designed. Unless you begin to notice problems with your knife similar to those that others have already mentioned, keep it and use it.

(buncha stuff)

I don't think you understand why people have a problem with MS. It's not because of the felony charge; if he'd just stayed clean afterwards, nobody would care about that. (And if he hadn't cheated people even before that happened, there's a chance nobody would know about it, either, since the information was brought to light by members of the knife industry he'd pissed off.)
And it's not because of the fact that they produce lemons, either. Every factory does that.

Some brands of knife are bought by people who use them, others.. not. BKRT is probably the most extreme example of the second. It's the basis of their aesthetics driven marketing strategy with that huge range of handle materials, most of which don't work nearly as well micarta.

I don't think that's true. Bark River produces great looking knives that also perform very well. Or at least the majority of them do, anyway. That's why they have so many fans. Combine that with the cult of personality MS has going in his forum, and you can pretty easily see how so many of the fans turn into fanboys. Large amount of fans + smaller (but still large) group of fanboys = successful company.

 

[meanwhile]

Bark River produces great looking knives that also perform very well. Or at least the majority of them do, anyway. That's why they have so many fans. Combine that with the cult of personality MS has going in his forum, and you can pretty easily see how so many of the fans turn into fanboys. Large amount of fans + smaller (but still large) group of fanboys = successful company.

What does "perform well" mean? For a BR owner it seems to mean that a $200 Bravo should be able to do most of the things that a $20 Mora can. This isn't much of a standard to aspire too for a $200 knife.

 

[meanwhile]

I do not own any Bark River knives but hope to someday when I am making a little more money.

When a large company makes mass quanties of anything there are always going to be mistakes. Fact is humans are not perfect so between the makers and the quality control people and the shipping people bad stuff will get thru.

People act as if Mike Stewart himself makes and inspects and ships every knife made. I am sure he does not just a Henry Ford did not personally make every single car and truck that was produced.

No, but he sets the warranty policy that says that if you buy a $200 bowie that blows chunks of steel out of the edge because it was ruined in the factory, then they grind it down into a steak knife - to reach steel they didn't ruin - rather than replacing it. If BRKT operated a decent warranty - and didn't unleash their Fan Boi Hordes on the Internet and, ideally, stopped ripping people in the industry off - then I don't think anyone would have a problem with them. The problem is at the moment when they make a mistake it is the customer who has to pay rather than Bark River.

I would rather buy a knife from a crook who is keeping jobs here in America than a clean business man who ships 100 jobs overseas to have it made cheaper.

Believe it or not, there are other options... Although personally I'm not so big with the Fu Manchu Will Destroy Us All! meme.

 

[MatthewSB]

However, when it comes to the handles, the fit&finish my experiences have sometimes not been satisfactory: Bocote peeling away from the tang after a year of careful use

Not sure about your other experiences, but any wood, no matter how "stabilized" can shrink. Once it does, it breaks the epoxy. This happens with any manufacturer that uses wood handles. It's a good reason not to own wood user knives, and why people choose G10 or micarta.

The majority of the products they put out are gorgeous looking and fantastically designed. Unless you begin to notice problems with your knife similar to those that others have already mentioned, keep it and use it.

...And if you do have a problem, send it in and they will fix it.

Some brands of knife are bought by people who use them, others.. not. BKRT is probably the most extreme example of the second. It's the basis of their aesthetics driven marketing strategy with that huge range of handle materials, most of which don't work nearly as well micarta.

All brands of knife have examples that end up in drawers.

I have two Bravo 1s, one in A2 and one in 3V, that have been abused. The A2 knife rode under my shirt an entire Summer, getting sweated on and pounded through wood and dropped on asphalt. A quick trip to the Spa and it looked like new. I just got an S35VN that will be 'tested' this Summer, I'm confident that it will perform like the others.

Has things with their warranty service gotten better? Are the grinds getting more even on the knives? Or is all of this a recurring theme with their company?

I'm not sure it was ever that bad to begin with. Correction, I'm sure that it was never that bad to begin with. Out of hundreds of thousands of knives, people dig up a half dozen posts on the internet about how horrible something is, ignoring the hundreds of thousands of happy customers, many of which have had excellent customer service if they had to use it.

The grinds are, and were except for a few examples, excellent. Out of a dozen BRKT knives I've had over the past 5 years, none had a "bad grind". I'm guessing that most of the complaints about grinds are by people who don't understand how a convex edge works.

 

[meanwhile]

. Out of hundreds of thousands of knives, people dig up a half dozen posts on the internet about how horrible something is, ignoring the hundreds of thousands of happy customers, many of which have had excellent customer service if they had to use it..

This is nonsense. The BRKT warranty is that if a knife fails because it has been badly made it, in general does not get replaced but mutilated and returned to the user. People have argued with Stewart over this and been abused by his fans online. This is not acceptable, and assuming that such cases are vastly outweighed by happy customers is just that - an assumption. A warranty that is not a warranty, but which returns a mangled knife to the user is not a warranty. As a community we just shouldn't put up with it: no one should defend this or attempt to obscure it.

 

[Will Power]

Matthew, I can't quite agree with you about wood's fragility. Yes if it is not stabilized properly, but, it SHOULD be correctly stabilized by a properly set up company. The Bocote peeled away and split from hardly any use at all, never got wet. OK maybe i was just unlucky...but after my previous warranty experience with BR I decided to have the knife re-handled, elsewhere. Wood IS tough stuff, take a look at old slipjoints in Ebony or Coco, they've stood decades of wear&tear,even longer. Here in Finland, Curlybirch is very tough stuff for puukko handles, I've never had issues there including knives with birch slab handles. However, I've had problems with BR knives with Antique Ivory micarta as well, with one the pins fell out needing gluing back, worse, with another the pins seem to have shrunk inwards and the micarta itself is no longer smooth and flush with the tang. Another sunken tang knife has very ugly join/seam marks on the micarta handles, not good enough in my book.

A few months back I bought a Caper knife from Hess Knifeworks also in Michigan, this has Maple handles and after a lot of wet winter work it shows no signs of any problems with the handles at all, very good value knife as well. Time will tell of course but these seem very decent.