Bark River Knives... Heat Treat, Edge Retention and A2???

[meanwhile]

Not sure about your other experiences, but any wood, no matter how "stabilized" can shrink.

This pure nonsense. Correctly stablized wood is completely stable - you putit through a dishwasher all day for years and there won't be a problem. If BRKTs with "stablized" wood are having problems in just months of light use, then it is because they have been extremely cheap and not paid for decent quality stablization - which is unforgiveable, given the price they charge for a knife and the premium on top of that for stabilized wood.

 

[Luis G.]

This pure nonsense. Correctly stablized wood is completely stable - you putit through a dishwasher all day for years and there won't be a problem. If BRKTs with "stablized" wood are having problems in just months of light use, then it is because they have been extremely cheap and not paid for decent quality stablization - which is unforgiveable, given the price they charge for a knife and the premium on top of that for stabilized wood.

I've had a few stabilized woods in customs. Every piece of wood was professional stabilized.
Stabilized wood shrinks. It may or may not shrink less than non stabilized but it will shrink.Stabilizing lessens the risk of it cracking, but still shrinks.

If you need durability something like Micarta, or G10 is light years ahead of any wood, even stabilized hardwoods.

 

[chiral.grolim]

..But this might not be too bad if you get a canvas micarta handled knife - it's grippy stuff and gets grippier when wet. I'd stay away from wood, paper micarta and G10 though.

ROUGH-finished micarta (as on Bussekin, ESEE, Survive! Knives, etc.) provides excellent grip, yes, but the handle of the Bravo 1 I had was green canvas micarta finished to a high polish and VERY slippery, it may even have had a PU-coating so high was the polish. Any of these materials can provide good retention IF given a proper low-grit finish, but I've not yet seen a BRKT knife designed that way... *shrug*

...Stabilized wood shrinks. It may or may not shrink less than non stabilized but it will shrink.Stabilizing lessens the risk of it cracking, but still shrinks....

What do you mean, "may or may not"?? It had BETTER shrink less than non-stabilized wood! (Excerpt from http://burlsales.com/stabilized.html)

"The purpose of stabilizing wood for use as knife handle materials is to make the wood more durable and less prone to cracking or moving.
Dry wood to be stabilized is placed in a chamber under a vacuum. The stabilizing agent (chemicals) are released into the chamber with the wood. The wood and chemicals undergo a period of time under vacuum followed by a time under high pressure. After the wood has been completely penetrated or infused with the chemicals the wood is then heat cured in ovens. This changes the liquid stabilizing agent into a solid. When properly done the chemicals penetrate the wood grain and fibers and turn into a solid giving the wood additional weight and hardness for increased durability. This helps to limit or eliminate warping, cracking and other problems that can occur with wood when used under extreme conditions. Stabilized wood is usually easier to work with and finish than natural wood because some open pores and voids become filled and the wood now has a more evenly distributed hardness."

Shrinking/warping/etc. is movement which the resin impregnation is meant to prevent. If the stabilized moves as much as non-stabilized wood of the same species, then no "stabilization" was effected and the term is moot. Does anyone know where BRKT gets their stabilized wood? Might it be from overseas?

I think that the lesson here is, if you want a custom knife, why not order from a custom maker dedicated to your specific piece rather than paying the same price to a company for whom your piece is just one of many? Perhaps it is because the BRKT offerings are readily available n large quantities from various dealers... *shrug*

 

[goodeyesniper]

I would rather buy a knife from a crook who is keeping jobs here in America than a clean business man who ships 100 jobs overseas to have it made cheaper. If you ask me anybody who has their knives made in China is giving aid to the enemy and deserves to be punished because one day a china man is going to shoot my son with bullets paid for by so called smart American Business men.

 

[meanwhile]

ROUGH-finished micarta (as on Bussekin, ESEE, Survive! Knives, etc.) provides excellent grip, yes, but the handle of the Bravo 1 I had was green canvas micarta finished to a high polish and VERY slippery, it may even have had a PU-coating so high was the polish. Any of these materials can provide good retention IF given a proper low-grit finish, but I've not yet seen a BRKT knife designed that way... *shrug*

Well, that's crazy. But I suppose if you really like the Bravo you could a micarta one and sandpaper the handle.

Also: I have an EKA H8 blade with a tufnol handle I put on it, which I finished to 12,000 grit. I though tufnol and micarta were identical, but although the handle looks polished it is definitely still grippy. And I have put a lot less bulge and indent in there than the Bravo handle has.

What do you mean, "may or may not"?? It had BETTER shrink less than non-stabilized wood! (Excerpt from http://burlsales.com/stabilized.html)

"The purpose of stabilizing wood for use as knife handle materials is to make the wood more durable and less prone to cracking or moving.
Dry wood to be stabilized is placed in a chamber under a vacuum. The stabilizing agent (chemicals) are released into the chamber with the wood. The wood and chemicals undergo a period of time under vacuum followed by a time under high pressure. After the wood has been completely penetrated or infused with the chemicals the wood is then heat cured in ovens. This changes the liquid stabilizing agent into a solid. When properly done the chemicals penetrate the wood grain and fibers and turn into a solid giving the wood additional weight and hardness for increased durability. This helps to limit or eliminate warping, cracking and other problems that can occur with wood when used under extreme conditions. Stabilized wood is usually easier to work with and finish than natural wood because some open pores and voids become filled and the wood now has a more evenly distributed hardness."

My take - based purely on what other have told me, who have worked with stablized wood - is that

- It should be truly stable

- Many "professional" suppliers are not that great - because stabilizing is a real pain in the ass - and that if I ever wanted any sw then I should order from burlsales or brisa, or maybe a couple of others.

..So again my suspicion here is that BR are cutting corners and saving money to increase profits. There's a thread on BR you can find where someone claims that people who have attended their grind-ins have seen BR employees fixing handle slabs on with spray adhesive - instead of the sandblast/long set high strength epoxy/clamp/controlled curing conditions you'd expect of a knife at this price.

 

[MatthewSB]

This is nonsense.

It's not nonsense, it's personal experience which is far more valid than secondhand internet hearsay.

ROUGH-finished micarta (as on Bussekin, ESEE, Survive! Knives, etc.) provides excellent grip, yes, but the handle of the Bravo 1 I had was green canvas micarta finished to a high polish and VERY slippery, it may even have had a PU-coating so high was the polish. Any of these materials can provide good retention IF given a proper low-grit finish, but I've not yet seen a BRKT knife designed that way... *shrug*

Not sure about the other models, but the Bravo 1 was designed to grip based on the shape, not the texture, of the handle. It's the same wet or dry, dirty or clean, and it works great.

If a user doesn't like the slippery, waxed and polished handles, the knife can be sent it back for a "matte finish". Personally, I dislike "open" or unpolished micarta because the outer, exposed layer absorbs sweat, blood and other nasty stuff that the knife is exposed to. I've had BRKT's matte G10 and it felt a little bit grippier, but was unneccessary due to the shape of the handle.

 

[meanwhile]

Quote Originally Posted by evildick View Post
I would rather buy a knife from a crook who is keeping jobs here in America than a clean business man who ships 100 jobs overseas to have it made cheaper. If you ask me anybody who has their knives made in China is giving aid to the enemy and deserves to be punished because one day a china man is going to shoot my son with bullets paid for by so called smart American Business men.

Yes, it's either give your money to a convicted felon who won't honour warranties. Or this:

That said, my MTech 151 is a hell of a knife for $25..

 

[meanwhile]

Not sure about the other models, but the Bravo 1 was designed to grip based on the shape, not the texture, of the handle. It's the same wet or dry, dirty or clean, and it works great.

Obviously some people disagree. I have to remain neutral on this - plus, as I said, it sounds like a problem that could be fixed with sandpaper, so it shouldn't stop anyone buying. Unlike the frequent problem reports, poor warranty, and the fact that you seem to be supporting an individual with questionable business and personal ethics. (Eg http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Jack-knives-I-could-not-talk-about-til-now-))

If a user doesn't like the slippery, waxed and polished handles, the knife can be sent it back for a "matte finish".

SANDPAPER!!!

 

[chiral.grolim]

Despite the bad press, I am still really fond o the design of the 1.5 and am looking forward to receiving it. I will, however be giving it a thorough examination prior to use though in case of return.

One thing I am curious of though and maybe you can all shed some light on it without being to opinionated. Mods if this is an inappropriate question just let me know, but due to the overwhelming amount of information given to me I have to ask...

How/when did he switch or start up Bark River Knife and Tool?...

...are the products all that bad in reality? Serious question here as I just dropped a decent wad of cheddar and am beginning to think I made a mistake even as I really like the knife.

I've read that Mike Stewart & Les DeAsis owned Pacific Cutlery Corporation (which later became Benchmade) in CA ~1979 (mostly importing Japanese knives), he left for the Midwest and founded/operated BlackJack Knives in Illinois 1987-1997 (and BRKT still makes the USA knives, as they do for some other companies), was vice-president of Marbles in MI 1997-2001, started BRKT in 2001...

By now you may have read-up on the knife-makers & customers angry with him/BRKT, as well as the enormous fan-base.


I've already listed some points of concern regarding this particular knife you're after, but beyond those you may not face any real problems with the knife itself, and BF proves an exchange where you can sell the knife with little or no financial loss if you decide that it (or BRKT) isn't for you.
If you do decide to keep the knife, I encourage you to use it and perhaps even review it in comparison to a similar knife from another company, post in the REVIEW section of BF for us all to enjoy!

 

[Big Mike]

Well, that's crazy. But I suppose if you really like the Bravo you could a micarta one and sandpaper the handle.

It seems to me that the Bark River Micarta handles are available in both a polished (smooth) and a matte (bead blasted) finish.


Personally, I never had a problem with the polished Micarta handles.


I have found that the polished canvas Micarta develops a nice texture with some use,

...not rough like the matte finish, but not quite as slick as the high polished factory finish.


Scrubbing the polished Micarta with hot soapy water and a Scotch-Brite type pad will accelerate exposing the texture.




Big Mike

 

[tueller]

I have an A2 bravo 1 w/ ramp and love it. How much do I use it? Probably more than some but less than others. The steel? No complaints. The edge? Convex takes me a little longer to sharpen but that's on me though. When I get it right, it's my favorite edge. The ramp? I like it. Gives me options, sometimes the thumb goes over it (as recommended), sometimes on it and sometimes I ignore it and just go with the hammer grip. As for using it for a firesteel, sure if I have to but a lighter is easier. The handle? Mine is black micarta. It works for me. No more slippery than the beckers factory scales. Yes my esee's have a flatter grip so less slide but that also makes it less comfortable in the hand. The sheath? I have a custom leather and need to get a kydex so can't comment. Warrenty? i don't know because i never had a problem w/ my bravo 1 and dont own any other brkt's. All and all, the bravo 1 is my go to if I can only grab one knife. If I am carrying more than one, I carry a smaller knife w/ a larger knife or hatchet.

At the end of the day. Buy it, use it, and enjoy it. Opinions vary too much to concern yourself with them. Knives are a very personal thing and you have to reach your own conclusions on what works for you.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Not sure about the other models, but the Bravo 1 was designed to grip based on the shape, not the texture, of the handle. It's the same wet or dry, dirty or clean, and it works great.

If a user doesn't like the slippery, waxed and polished handles, the knife can be sent it back for a "matte finish". Personally, I dislike "open" or unpolished micarta because the outer, exposed layer absorbs sweat, blood and other nasty stuff that the knife is exposed to. I've had BRKT's matte G10 and it felt a little bit grippier, but was unneccessary due to the shape of the handle.

I agree with meanwhile here, "matte finish" can be accomplished by most any abrasive. I am sure that that would dramatically improve the knife's usability. That "open" layer of micarta you are concerned about absorption into is ~0.01", i.e. just wicking at the loose surface fibers (which provide the incredible retention and "warm" feeling), about the same amount as simply sticks to the surface of even polished materials and LESS than fills the pits of textured G10, etc. That "nasty" stuff washes out with soap & water. The micarta itself is impervious to water, etc. Here's an older thread on micarta: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/407828-Micarta-damage

As to the shape of the handle providing the retention, FAIL. Because the handles are smoothly polished and VERY round, the knife twists easily in hand, esp. with gloves or under adverse conditions (cold, wet, tired). I've tested this at length and will post a quick video about it soon, trying to upload it now... If the knife is designed such that the blade cannot be kept cutting in the intended direction (without great effort) during use it was intended for, that is a problem.

I have an A2 bravo 1 w/ ramp and love it. ... The ramp? I like it. Gives me options, sometimes the thumb goes over it (as recommended), sometimes on it and sometimes I ignore it and just go with the hammer grip. As for using it for a firesteel, sure if I have to but a lighter is easier. The handle? Mine is black micarta. It works for me. No more slippery than the beckers factory scales. Yes my esee's have a flatter grip so less slide but that also makes it less comfortable in the hand.

The ramp is ONLY useful with the thumb beneath (as originally intended, clear from the jimping and older sale images) for piercing, etc. When BRKT realized that they designed it badly, they claimed that the underside was for striking a firesteel - except that the edges are soft and somewhat rounded there so it only works with a great deal of force, i.e. a VERY poor choice of striker unless modified by the user - and that proper thumb-placement was above the ramp, which decreases the amount of force one can place on the spine for notching, etc. (as the new sales-pitch suggests)! BRKT soon began offering the Bravo 1 "rampless" and now has their "field" model with jimping like Survive! and ESEE knives instead of the useless & uncomfortable ramp, as users were grinding them off themselves. Even in hammer-grip, the thumb-ramp is obnoxious as it rasps the junction between thumb and index finger in use. Some users are just complacent enough to accept the ramp as it is, as the knife can still be used despite the obvious mistake.

I like the comparison to the MUCH cheaper Becker scales, also known for being slick and ESEE's scales, known for being uncomfortable because of their shape and short length. But, amazingly, these are not the only handle designs out there! Take a look at the Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 or the Swamp Rat HRLM reviewed HERE. One could also look at ResC (bussekin) or other rubberized handles, but those more easily suffer damage from abrasion. I personally believe that handle comfort and security is second ONLY to structural integrity of the knife (which includes edge stability). A knife needs to cut and should be safe & comfortable in the use for which it was designed.

 

[Luis G.]

What do you mean, "may or may not"?? It had BETTER shrink less than non-stabilized wood! (Excerpt from http://burlsales.com/stabilized.html)
Shrinking/warping/etc. is movement which the resin impregnation is meant to prevent. If the stabilized moves as much as non-stabilized wood of the same species, then no "stabilization" was effected and the term is moot. Does anyone know where BRKT gets their stabilized wood? Might it be from overseas?

I think that the lesson here is, if you want a custom knife, why not order from a custom maker dedicated to your specific piece rather than paying the same price to a company for whom your piece is just one of many? Perhaps it is because the BRKT offerings are readily available n large quantities from various dealers... *shrug*

It means no one can guarantee you a 100% non shrink wood. It helps a lot, and I mean a lot. So far I've yet to have issues with stabilized woods, even when in moist enviroments.
It may or may not shrink, however the risk of cracking or damaging is lessened period. Sometimes stabilized wood may not shrink, most of the times in my experience it does but very little. Even if it comes from the same batch of stabilized wood. I am not expert in stabilization just telling you what I know about it.

If you can't live with this lack of guarantee then go with something like G10 or Micarta.

My take - based purely on what other have told me, who have worked with stablized wood - is that

- It should be truly stable

- Many "professional" suppliers are not that great - because stabilizing is a real pain in the ass - and that if I ever wanted any sw then I should order from burlsales or brisa, or maybe a couple of others.

..So again my suspicion here is that BR are cutting corners and saving money to increase profits. There's a thread on BR you can find where someone claims that people who have attended their grind-ins have seen BR employees fixing handle slabs on with spray adhesive - instead of the sandblast/long set high strength epoxy/clamp/controlled curing conditions you'd expect of a knife at this price.

Not going to argue suspicions or claims. Chances are even if they wanted to skim on wood, they would have to go out of there way to find a bad supplier and likely pay the same cost as a good supplier.

 

[NoFair]

As to the shape of the handle providing the retention, FAIL. Because the handles are smoothly polished and VERY round, the knife twists easily in hand, esp. with gloves or under adverse conditions (cold, wet, tired). I've tested this at length and will post a quick video about it soon, trying to upload it now... If the knife is designed such that the blade cannot be kept cutting in the intended direction (without great effort) during use it was intended for, that is a problem.



The ramp is ONLY useful with the thumb beneath (as originally intended, clear from the jimping and older sale images) for piercing, etc. When BRKT realized that they designed it badly, they claimed that the underside was for striking a firesteel - except that the edges are soft and somewhat rounded there so it only works with a great deal of force, i.e. a VERY poor choice of striker unless modified by the user - and that proper thumb-placement was above the ramp, which decreases the amount of force one can place on the spine for notching, etc. (as the new sales-pitch suggests)! BRKT soon began offering the Bravo 1 "rampless" and now has their "field" model with jimping like Survive! and ESEE knives instead of the useless & uncomfortable ramp, as users were grinding them off themselves. Even in hammer-grip, the thumb-ramp is obnoxious as it rasps the junction between thumb and index finger in use. Some users are just complacent enough to accept the ramp as it is, as the knife can still be used despite the obvious mistake.

I like the comparison to the MUCH cheaper Becker scales, also known for being slick and ESEE's scales, known for being uncomfortable because of their shape and short length. But, amazingly, these are not the only handle designs out there! Take a look at the Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 or the Swamp Rat HRLM reviewed HERE. One could also look at ResC (bussekin) or other rubberized handles, but those more easily suffer damage from abrasion. I personally believe that handle comfort and security is second ONLY to structural integrity of the knife (which includes edge stability). A knife needs to cut and should be safe & comfortable in the use for which it was designed.

I've just washed them with dishwasher soap and hot water which removes the wax. Then they aren't slick any more.

Not had any of your issues with the handles after using a first run Bravo for years, but hands and ways of holding a knife are different. Thought I would grind the ramp on mine off before I got it, but it doesn't bother me so it has stayed. It does suck for using with a firesteel though, the rest of the spine works fine.

 

[PharaohX3]

No really sure about the negative talk about Barkie's warranty. I'm guessing it's mostly internet hearsay? Possibly one or two exceptions that may or may not be true or biased? I've never had warranty issues with a Barkie but my brother has. After seriously abusing his Bravo the handle got a little loose. It was replaced immediately. Not fixed or modified, replaced. Not only that, it was upgraded. They gave him his choice of handle material on the replacement. So I can say from pretty much first hand experience that Bark River fully covers their products, even if they are used improperly. As far as re-grinding a chipped edge, that makes perfect sense to me. Never heard of them being ground down to the nub until this thread though. Again those stories may or may not be true, internet is funny like that. If it is true I have to confess that would disturb me a more than a little bit.

And who cares if MS is a felon? He's not my stock broker or marrying my daughter so big deal. The guy makes a heck of a knife, his personal legal problems aren't my concern. OP, I still say go for that Bravo 1.5, you'll dig it buddy. I've used mine extensively and the thing is a friggin tank. Cuts like a dream and feels great in hand. Yeah, I'm kind of a Bark River "fan boy" I guess, but I'm a fan boy of a lot of companies, including ESEE, Busse, Fallkniven, and Blind Horse. And dont even get me started on custom makers...

 

[meanwhile]

As to the shape of the handle providing the retention, FAIL. Because the handles are smoothly polished and VERY round, the knife twists easily in hand, esp. with gloves or under adverse conditions (cold, wet, tired). I've tested this at length and will post a quick video about it soon, trying to upload it now... If the knife is designed such that the blade cannot be kept cutting in the intended direction (without great effort) during use it was intended for, that is a problem.

Ok: I'd consider that a sufficient reason not to buy a Bravo.

I like the comparison to the MUCH cheaper Becker scales, also known for being slick and ESEE's scales, known for being uncomfortable because of their shape and short length. But, amazingly, these are not the only handle designs out there! Take a look at the Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 or the Swamp Rat HRLM reviewed HERE. One could also look at ResC (bussekin) or other rubberized handles, but those more easily suffer damage from abrasion. I personally believe that handle comfort and security is second ONLY to structural integrity of the knife (which includes edge stability). A knife needs to cut and should be safe & comfortable in the use for which it was designed.

I think I'd start with either looking at either an Enzo Camper (boring name) or a Svord KGO. The Enzo seems to be everything that the Bravo is marketed as being - a very pretty larger than average bushcraft knife but also a user. And the Svord is less than $50, has a good handle design, and the blade is only 2.5mm thick but batons well. The other problem I have with the Bravo is the stupidly thick blade: a 5mm spine on a blade that isn't designed for chopping is pointless at best and can really get in the way of penetrating cutting. Oh - and I'm very curious about the Ritter whatever it is, because of the innovative blade and handle shapes.

 

[meanwhile]

No really sure about the negative talk about Barkie's warranty. I'm guessing it's mostly internet hearsay?.

If you mean that people have posted about that they have been told they should live with warped blades, yes. If you mean that people have posted a new chipped and that instead of a replacement they got a ground down abomination months later, yes.

And who cares if MS is a felon? He's not my stock broker or marrying my daughter so big deal. The guy makes a heck of a knife, his personal legal problems aren't my concern.

Well, I care. Because if I am spending several hundred dollars on a knife I want someone who is likely to honour the warranty and to have exercised integrity in producing the knife - someone who uses the grade of material that I have paid for, and who has his employees epoxy scales onto properly prepared tangs instead of slapping them on with spray adhesive!

Leaving aside issues of value and not wanting to get screwed over so someone with poor ethics can make a quick buck, a bad knife is actually pretty damn dangerous. Because, you know, SHARP! Plus you might be doing something important when a knife fails.

So colour me choosy, but when I spend $200 on a smallish knife, I want to know that I can rely on it.

 

[markpmc]

While I have no beef with BRKT I understand the disdain for Mr Stewart and the Bark River crew. I have piped up on their forum regarding a production sheath that was for the Bravo1 and was a poor design. The thread eventually got locked and then deleted just like all threads on their forum that are not all sunshine and rainbows. They do make some pretty looking knives just nothing I will ever buy again. There has been many complaints regarding chipping and rolling of the A2 steel, they have just all been deleted. And yes the warranty is just a regrind and a laugh of now it is a "custom".

I remember your thread on KF! Saw it get merged w/ another users thread with the same issue. Then deleted a day or so later.

 

[Ebbtide]

Just a word on stabilizing handle materials.
It's like heat treating steel.
When it is right, it's right.
When it isn't, it isn't.

I have customs with stabilized cow bone and another with stabilized tiger maple from 1999 and 2004 respectively.
They are more like stone than bone or wood. Neither has moved, shrunk or changed.
These are knives in an environment where stag shrank, mammoth ivory cracked, sheep horn pulled away from the tang and (untreated) ebony shrank as well.

Not a matter of the process but a matter of how well the process is done.

 

[PharaohX3]

If you mean that people have posted about that they have been told they should live with warped blades, yes. If you mean that people have posted a new chipped and that instead of a replacement they got a ground down abomination months later, yes.



Well, I care. Because if I am spending several hundred dollars on a knife I want someone who is likely to honour the warranty and to have exercised integrity in producing the knife - someone who uses the grade of material that I have paid for, and who has his employees epoxy scales onto properly prepared tangs instead of slapping them on with spray adhesive!

Leaving aside issues of value and not wanting to get screwed over so someone with poor ethics can make a quick buck, a bad knife is actually pretty damn dangerous. Because, you know, SHARP! Plus you might be doing something important when a knife fails.

So colour me choosy, but when I spend $200 on a smallish knife, I want to know that I can rely on it.

Right... you gotta do what you think is best, brother, cant fault you for that. All I can say is the 11 Barkie knives I own are splendid and my family's first hand experience with the Barkie warranty was excellent. Till me or someone I actually know(including the professional soldiers and avid outdoorsmen I grew up around, who also happen to love Bark River) get burned I think I'll stay on board. Same goes for all the other brands I enjoy.