It's hard to argue with that logic.
My experience is very similar.
I tend to trust personal experience over the parroted comments that certain folks with an agenda tend to add to these threads.
Big Mike
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Bark River Knives... Heat Treat, Edge Retention and A2???
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It's hard to argue with that logic.
My experience is very similar.
I tend to trust personal experience over the parroted comments that certain folks with an agenda tend to add to these threads.
Big Mike
tueller
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The ramp is ONLY useful with the thumb beneath (as originally intended, clear from the jimping and older sale images) for piercing, etc. When BRKT realized that they designed it badly, they claimed that the underside was for striking a firesteel - except that the edges are soft and somewhat rounded there so it only works with a great deal of force, i.e. a VERY poor choice of striker unless modified by the user - and that proper thumb-placement was above the ramp, which decreases the amount of force one can place on the spine for notching, etc. (as the new sales-pitch suggests)! BRKT soon began offering the Bravo 1 "rampless" and now has their "field" model with jimping like Survive! and ESEE knives instead of the useless & uncomfortable ramp, as users were grinding them off themselves. Even in hammer-grip, the thumb-ramp is obnoxious as it rasps the junction between thumb and index finger in use. Some users are just complacent enough to accept the ramp as it is, as the knife can still be used despite the obvious mistake.
I like the comparison to the MUCH cheaper Becker scales, also known for being slickand ESEE's scales, known for being uncomfortable because of their shape and short length. But, amazingly, these are not the only handle designs out there! Take a look at the Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 or the Swamp Rat HRLM reviewed HERE. One could also look at ResC (bussekin) or other rubberized handles, but those more easily suffer damage from abrasion. I personally believe that handle comfort and security is second ONLY to structural integrity of the knife (which includes edge stability). A knife needs to cut and should be safe & comfortable in the use for which it was designed.
It's comical when I am told what feels good in MY hand or how I am to use a design feature while performing MY task, with MY hands and using MY skills (or lack there of). Sorry if your bothered by my difference in personal preferences but I find the bravo to be extremely comfortable in MY hand and I find the ramp to be comfortable with a variety of MY uses. If someone doesn't, my advice is to get a rampless one or a different knife. I will not argue with you or tell you how to use it.
As for my comparison to Becker and Esee, it was just because I like those knives and were comparing features that I like. I don't have experience with swamp rat or survive, so it would have been silly to use them for comparison. But I have heard good things about those knives, so someday, who knows
.Again, my experience is very similar.
I have had both the Original Bravo-1 and the Rampless, I thought I would not like the ramp, but it turns out it works well for me, and the forward thumb position does work well for applying pressure with the heel of the blade.
But, like tueller says, personal preferences and hand shapes make all the difference.
Big Mike
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I had the same opinion on the Bravo. When I first saw it, the ramp looked a little gimmicky. Once I actually used it I found it growing on me right away. Now I'm really enjoying it. I have the rampless too but I find myself using that one less.
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Personally I find both Bravo and Gunny handle shape very comfortable and secure (never did it twist on me) despite the polished micarta, I cannot say the same about the flat scales on knives which I find uncomfortable despite the rough micarta. In fact all of my barkies have comfortable handles that fit the role of the knife pretty well. So you can read the negative posts here or you can get the knife that is calling you and see for yourself.
Actually, it is pretty easy and people do it all the time: if one company has a much worse track record on quality and trustworthiness than its competitors, then smart people generally don't wait to be burned. Would choose a doctor with a record of unethical conduct, a major felony conviction, and the worst record of complaints against him in the district??? Or the car mechanic who ruined your neighbours' cars, and was prosecuted for fraud when running his garage? Most people would say "Hell, no!" But, come to think of it, you are the guy who told a guy who Steward sent one of his mutilated re-grinds to to think of it as a "custom" instead of complaining that the knife was next to useless and unsaleable, so we probably think pretty differently...
..And just forget that BR sends knives out without properly attaching handles to scales, uses inferior handles materials, tells people that warped blades are normal, and may try to wriggle out of warranty on any fault no matter no matter how undeniable! No, LOOK AT THE HANDLES! PURTY!
That's nice.. But a Bahco Wrecking Knife costs $40 and will stand up to chiselling - I mean real chiselling, being hit with a hammer hard all day. When people say "My expensive knife survived a few minutes of ACTUALLY BEING USED - WOW!" I feel a little weird. Those stories about Swamp Rats being used to cut apart a car sound worth recounting, but I find "My knife survived being used like a dimestore chisel"... a little underwhelming. It's $200 of steel; it really should.
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I have no problem with the thumb ramp on the Bravo. I could send mine in and have it ground off at no cost other than shipping or just do it myself but I choose to keep it as I find it as useful as I do the thumb ramp on knives such as some of the Becker and Spyderco models I have. As far as the polished handles go, with some models I don't care for it at all but with the Bravo it is not really an issue with me due to the palm swell, finger groove/guard and other handle contours. Most materials are easily modified to provide more traction if desired and highly polished handles, or course, are not something unique to BRKT. The same thumb ramp that many dislike can serve to provide a more secure grip and help prevent the hand from sliding forward. Personal preferences vary and to each his own.
I hope you enjoy your knife but should you not, you can always just send it back or sell it to someone that might. I have found that there is a good demand in the secondary market for Barkies. All of my Bark Rivers were acquired 2nd hand (users, LNIB & NIB) with the exception of one and that one turned out to be a catch & release for me. Some models I really like and some not so much which has been my experience with many brands. When the folks with often no first hand or relevant experience emerge and try to convince you that you made a bad decision to purchase a particular knife, my advice is to just ignore them and let your own experiences determine what works for you and what doesn't. Please let us know how it turns out and share some photos.
I hope you enjoy your knife but should you not, you can always just send it back or sell it to someone that might. I have found that there is a good demand in the secondary market for Barkies. All of my Bark Rivers were acquired 2nd hand (users, LNIB & NIB) with the exception of one and that one turned out to be a catch & release for me. Some models I really like and some not so much which has been my experience with many brands. When the folks with often no first hand or relevant experience emerge and try to convince you that you made a bad decision to purchase a particular knife, my advice is to just ignore them and let your own experiences determine what works for you and what doesn't. Please let us know how it turns out and share some photos.
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I've been reading this thread with interest, not planning to post but meanwhile's comment above hit home.
I'm neutral in the issue. I do not own a BRK nor do I have a personal opinion about their quality and/or warranty. But I'll say this:
There are more knives in this world that I want than I could ever afford to buy. Some of the BRKs are very interesting, but why should I take a chance with one? I have read more negative stuff about BRK than almost any other "mid-ranged" knife maker. With that in mind, why would I buy BRK? The issues may be real, they may not - but I have finite money that I would rather spend on a knife that is less controversial.
The BRK is certainly not the end-all, be-all of knives and I can be just as satisfied (or more so) with someone who hasn't the controversy swirling around their business and product. In my many years of life on this earth, one truism that I believe is that there is rarely smoke without the fire.
So, I'll take the safer route and if I never have a BRK in my collection, I find it hard to believe that I will have missed out on anything as those same $$$ will have been spent on an alternative product.
All that said, I realize that it is just my opinion and someone who wishes to own a BRK, or takes a different approach to knife buying is certainly entitled to do so. That is why there are so many choices that we as knife buyers are lucky enough to have. If a BRK is someone's desired knife, go for it and enjoy. Not my place to suggest what someone else should do, my own decisions are hard enough to make.
JMO.
I'm curious - who else comes close to matching BR's reputation for problems and unfairness? I can't think of anyone else in the midrange.
As for me, the biggest reason why I am so down on BR is the way that MS and his fan bois behave on the BR forum at knifeforums: you might think that they are a little weird here, but there they literally attack people who report problems until they victim is exhausted, and then Mike usually deletes the thread. (Several people in this thread have discussed this, including people who have been attacked this away.) What fun! How reassuringly it speaks of the ethics of the company!
chiral.grolim
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If you prefer removing the seat from your bicycle for personal reasons, that's certainly a subjective preference, but what YOU find "comfortable" or even usable may have a great deal more to do with YOUR ability (skill) at adapting a bad design feature to meet your needs, adaption rendered completely unnecessary by a good design. If you tested the amount of force able to be applied comfortably to the blade-spine in ANY use with and without the presence of that thumb-ramp (a simple test which i encourage you to perform for yourself), you will find that it less comfortable to apply the same amount of force against that ramp in any task other than thrusting for which thumb-ramps are intended. It is NOT a matter of personal preference, it is a matter of force-vectors and pressure, i.e. objective physics. Physics tells why it makes a poor firesteel-scraper. Physics tells why the handle is not as well designed as many others and why it is a poor design for the advertised use. The shape of the human hand does not differ dramatically enough to make this a purely subjective issue. I am not telling you how to use it, I am telling you its objective flaws. This does not mean that you cannot use it, nor does it mean that it is the worst design out there. But retention in hand is an objectively measurable property, as is tendency to twist in hand, as is therma and shock conductivity, as is the propensity to induce pain in a human hand. Again, it is NOT purely subjective.
Here is a quick video edited from a longer one i recorded a few weeks ago ...
[video=youtube;welPk493sPM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=welPk493sPM&feature=youtu.be[/video]
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If that question is not rhetorical, then my answer is that I cannot think of anyone either. My wording was intended to be less than inflammatory so that the point that I wished to make would not get lost in negativity aimed at BRK. My personal experience is neutral or non-existent.
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two guys with identical hands can still have vastly different opinions on the feel of different knife handles based on their intended use, the way they grew up around knives, their mindset, hell the WEATHER. To speak so cut and dry about someone other than yourself's opinion on it is a bit rash, imo. Sure, you *might* be able to qualify that a certain grip has more retention than another, that doesn't make it better or necessary. You might be able to say a thumbramp causes pain or whatever the hell you are saying, but maybe to others it gives just the right amount of tactile feedback for the work they do? There's a reason guys who race their cars don't like soft "comfy" brake feel, because they want that tactile feedback that a stiffer system can offer you.
There are guys who could make us all look like kindergartners with their knife skills who like that traditional, round, NO GRIP, puuko style knife. Are you going to tell them it's technically *worse* because it can become slippery and doesn't have a built in guard? An on the other hand, there are guys who skin a lot of game on knives with HUGE integral guards, are they wrong? Surely SOMEBODY is wrong, no? Or maybe everyone is just different.
I have never held a single Bark River knife, so I have no dog in this fight. Just sayin'.
There are guys who could make us all look like kindergartners with their knife skills who like that traditional, round, NO GRIP, puuko style knife. Are you going to tell them it's technically *worse* because it can become slippery and doesn't have a built in guard? An on the other hand, there are guys who skin a lot of game on knives with HUGE integral guards, are they wrong? Surely SOMEBODY is wrong, no? Or maybe everyone is just different.
I have never held a single Bark River knife, so I have no dog in this fight. Just sayin'.
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Strider seemed to be plagued with a ton of issues, however they seemed to handle it well once addressed.
As you can see my friend, there is more going on here then meets the eye.
Folks with personal experience state their honest opinions and respect for the quality of the knives.
Others (mostly the same few poster's), have a personal axe to grind with Mike Stewart himself.
I like the fact that I can beat the heck out of a knife without fear of loosing significant value because I know from personal experience that any knife I break or damage will be repaired or replaced.
The fact that I can send it in to be cleaned, sharpened and re-polished for the fifteen dollar SPA treatment makes beating on it a non-issue when it comes to re-sale value.
It's a win-win situation as far as I can see.
Big Mike
chiral.grolim
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More retention = better when retention is important. A bullet that won't leave the barrel is flawed, a knife that twists and slips more easily in use is flawed. If the knife is DESIGNED to slip for a specific reason (like the stiff brakes on those cars), tell me why. If it was NOT designed to slip but does, and slipping could prove dangerous, that is a flaw that was perhaps overlooked by the manufacturer, like cars which accelerate all by themselves
There are very specific reasons WHY this knife DOES tend to slip more than some others, reasons which are NOT subjective. If a user can keep his knife from slipping, THAT is subjective (based on user skill or environmental conditions), but the measured tendency is not.A knife with "NO GRIP" would be VERY challenging to use! But the reasons some users prefer the traditional puukko are personal, i.e. subjective. For example, they never put such force into the tool that it becomes overly dangerous or uncomfortable for them, despite the physical FACT that other designs distribute force better and provide better retention. If they make a claim that contradicts that fact, then YES, they are wrong. I know lots of hunters that skin with knives as described, but NOT because it is a better design, rather because it is the knife that they have which provides what they need - usually a sharp blade, a handle they can hold on to, and something to protect their fingers from riding up onto the sharp blade. NONE prefer those knives specifically for the enormous guard and say something like, "this huge guard makes the knife a better skinner than a knife with a lesser guard". If they did say something like that, they'd need to explain in detail what they meant.
Again, this is knives and physics, material science. You can have a personal preference, but understand that there exist objective means of measuring the various properties entailed in the designs. If you want to say that a specific handle is "comfortable", compared to what?? An oiled fish? The broom-stick from which you fashioned it? WHY do you find it more comfortable? Is it so comfortable that it cannot be improved upon? Have you ever tried an improved handle?
Here is another video, not by me, parodying some ideas of subjectivity in knives, but more specific to blade design & technique:
[video=youtube;W4LMFBaYIns]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4LMFBaYIns[/video]
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