Batoning with a folder poll

[OwenM]

The most correct answer is probably "it depends".
I've intentionally beaten a few folders to death, and abused several others out of curiosity, and they all got batoned with.
I would recommend against heavy batoning(like getting stupid with a hammer, or 2" pipe like some of us may or may not have done) with any folder whose lockup depends on portions of two surfaces meeting precisely--lockbacks, liner locks, frame locks, compression locks. You're going to cause blade play with all of those, as well as compromise the reliability of the lock, except for the compression lock. Same goes for throwing these knives.
Likewise, if you beat on any folder hard enough, you can potentially screw up the pivot, or the material around it, since while pivots themselves are usually pretty strong, the handle or liner material may not be-unlined FRN being a prime example.
How much force it will take to damage one or the other is going to vary with the knives, so I'm not saying you can't baton with them, just that if you do it hard enough, you're going to screw your knife up. Except for plywood, wood thin enough to baton with a folder isn't going to be very thick, and should cut or split fairly easily, anyway, so there's not much reason to beat on it really hard. Just like if you were using a very thin fixed blade, tap it in a little at a time until the wood starts to split.
The only time I've damaged a folder using a sensible amount of force was with an Opinel whose lock ring indented the wood handles a little bit.
The method bigbcustom described takes away a lot of potential for damage by removing the lock from the equation, but is kind of awkward.


I think the first response to this thread actually summed it up rather well.

it depends on how you baton. for a smaller and medium size pieces of wood you don't really need to whack the hell out of the knife. a few good, solid taps should do just fine.

 

[Vivi]

Cobalt, I can see here that people on this thread are primarily worried about breaking the locking mechanism. I think that is the point that Cougar raised coming into play here. The lack of experience in actually doing batoning. I want people to know that above and beyond the locking mechanism, batoning can and will break the blade itself

That is why it is a risky thing to do, be it a fixed blade or a folder.

It's nothing but misinformation to say that batoning will break a knife. It can, but it's not guaranteed. Like another member posted, I have knives I've batoned frozen, knotty hard wood with for years, not paying attention to technique at all, and it's never given me problems. If you do things right and work within the capabilities of the tool you're using, it's very unlikely that you will break something.

 

[preventec47]

I think any folder with a 5/16" blade can be batoned

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What kind of folder knife has a 5/16 inch blade ?
I've never heard of such an animal !

Hey, would someone please explain what batoning is ?

I'm beginning to think you guys are cheerleaders or something
twirling batons

 

[Bumppo]

Many of us here have at least a passing interest in survival uses of knives. The common maxim holds true- "The best knife for survival is the one you have on you." On another thread a while back, I asked for opinions on the most sturdy folding knives with this thought in mind. If I am not able or going to carry my first choice all purpose super duper fixed blade knife, which folder can I always have on me that I can most depend on? We can all point out that the best tool for the job is the one to have, but doesn't it make sense to know which EDC you can legally carry all the time will still be able to do what you ask of it? Most likely, that will be a folder, and to know you can depend on it in an emergency to stand up to unusual abuse would be a good thing to know.

 

[Confederate]

Hey, would someone please explain what batoning is ?

Yes, it's driving the blade of a knife into a piece of wood with the idea of splitting the wood asunder by prying. Even full-tang knives have been known to break if too much pressure is brought to bear.

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[OwenM]

Negative. Prying has nothing to do with it, or doesn't have to.
Very awkward to pry or twist with most of the blade length stuck in something anyway. You can just split it all the way, or pull it apart.

 

[Cobalt]

Many of us here have at least a passing interest in survival uses of knives. The common maxim holds true- "The best knife for survival is the one you have on you." On another thread a while back, I asked for opinions on the most sturdy folding knives with this thought in mind. If I am not able or going to carry my first choice all purpose super duper fixed blade knife, which folder can I always have on me that I can most depend on? We can all point out that the best tool for the job is the one to have, but doesn't it make sense to know which EDC you can legally carry all the time will still be able to do what you ask of it? Most likely, that will be a folder, and to know you can depend on it in an emergency to stand up to unusual abuse would be a good thing to know.

yes, but anything with moving parts can and will fail eventually and much faster than something with no moving parts. You should be able to survive regardless of whether you have a knife or not. The knife will just make things easier for you.:thumbup:

 

[Confederate]

Well, you can pry it with the blade or with your fingers, but if you drive a blade into a small tree branch by pounding on the blade's spine, you're going to have to pry it somehow, and most people use their knives.

A quick Google search found an account by Reid Hyken (aka Sharpshooter) that is of interest. Speaking of point-first and edge-first batoning, Hyken reports:

Both methods are considered proper technique; ironically, regular batoning, with the edge first, is the only way I have experienced a knife breaking while batoning. Point-first which seems to have more possibility of being abusivehas never resulted in me breaking a knife. Also when a break does occur it’s not on the first couple of blows but, rather, after having done it for a while. The make or quality of the knife doesn’t seem to matter as I have broken some very good knives doing this. These failures seem to occur without warning or reason.

... Over time I noticed that it’s not as rare as one would think; in fact, I saw and read about some very good knives breaking. I noticed a post on an Internet forum; the writer was verbally trashing a #3 Eriksson Mora that broke when he was batoning it thru what looked like a 5” diameter poplar. A short time later I read about a Cold Steel Master Hunter breaking while batoning, again the allegations of “Bad Heat Treat” and defective knife began to fly. Looking at the pictures of these failed blades I was surprised to see the same break as I had experienced! There is definitely a pattern....

A short time later, he recounts, he took his Hidden Tang Rogue Bowie out for a test:

I took a freshly cut baton and set to work on a two-inch birch branch. The first two cuts were effortless, resulting in cleanly cut pieces waiting for notching to make the twitch up trap I was building. As I worked at my task, I carried on a conversation with another Woodsbum, not really concentrating on batoning; suddenly, there I was holding the coffin handle in my hand with the blade of my Rogue stuck firmly in the branch. What happened? The test was going so well and now I have a broken knife. Examining the break, I noticed the same familiar appearance. The guard remained on the blade with a piece of tang protruding from the Micarta handle. The broken piece was angled down, the top broken shorter than the bottom, exactly the same as the Fieldsman II from last winter.

For the entire report, here it is. Sharpshooter blames most of the breakages on poor technique. If you are going to baton, you might want to check it out.

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[HoB]

No, you don't have to pry somehow. Batoning has nothing to do with prying. Even in point first batoning you do not pry. You drive in the blade tip first, then you move the blade back and forth in a motion from edge to spine effectively cutting through the fibers. You do NOT load the knife laterally. However, most batoning is SPLITTING along the fiber. Once the blade is in the log, it only acts as a wedge, you drive the blade through the log till it falls apart or till you can tear it apart. There is no lateral load. Only if you tilt the blade while hitting it there is a lateral load, which should hence be avoided. Only in very knotty wood, the wood can exert a lateral force, but you do not pry, batoning has NOTHING to do with prying.

As I have pointed out in an earlier post, I would put to much weight on Sharpshooters account, not because it is not accurate, but there have been only such a limited number (again, I believe only two in total!) of Barkies being broken by batoning that I don't think it is statistically significant. Yes, it is common sense to be a bit more careful when batoning a hidden tang, but for example the Settler (hidden tang) is a very popular woodcraft design with plenty of accounts of it being batoned without a single failure. And most importantly BRKT still stands 100% behind batoning any of their knives.

 

[HoB]

yes, but anything with moving parts can and will fail eventually and much faster than something with no moving parts.

Absolutely! I should probably amend to my initial response to batoning folder, that it would never be my first choice. But even in less then dire circumstances, I would baton a folder. But when batoning a folder I pay a lot more attention to what I am doing and where I am going to hit the knife and how hard. On a fixed blade I would go for efficiency and try to use the least number of hits. On a folder I would use more hits with less force. A fixed blade I would baton mainly on the tip, a folder mainly on the pivot or unlock the folder and then hit the tip. Also, I would scale down my expectations: On a large fixed blade I would go for the largest chunk that leaves enough room to hit the tip. On a folder I would go for much smaller sections. The fact that most folders are a whole lot smaller and therefore limit the size of the wood helps to protect it as well. When cutting something to size instead of splitting, I would never baton a folder across the grain, unless the piece of wood is so small that I can hit the spine directly over the contact area. I would always go at an angle and as far as possible with the grain. All pretty much along the lines of what OwenM already said.

 

[noss4]

If I did baton with a folder I would be more careful about how I did it and how often I did it.

In regards to a fixed blade. I never use any technique. I hit it wherever and as hard as I need to complete the task. I have never broke any of my knives or my machete batoning wood. After doing destruction tests on many knives and seeing what it takes to destroy many of them. I think my chances are very low that I will ever break one of my knives batoning wood with wood.

 

[Confederate]

But it all leads back to the question of whether batoning is appropriate for a folder. What are people doing when they break their knives? Doesn't it seem likely that they are applying lateral force? And is it essential that a knife be able to baton in the strictest sense of the word?

So has anyone changed their minds since reading these posts? If I needed to split wood and all I had was a sturdy working knife, yeah, I might try it. But overall I don't think I'd be the first one to volunteer my knife.

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[noss4]

Confederate: I think it comes down to the individual and what they feel comfortable doing with their knives. I think the term abuse is to wide spread in the knife community. I have a few fixed blades I use in my shop that I abuse and use them for things some people would not. For me they work at completing the task and I'm ok with it. I only have to worry about myself and not what the knife community thinks about how I chose to use my knives.

If people chose to baton with their folders and it works for them. Then I'm not not going to criticize them for it.

Individualism is what it comes down to for me.

 

[Confederate]

Yeah, Nossie, but you abuse knives, gloves, hockey masks and video recorders, not to mention the Internet! Anyway, I'm waiting for someone to post how they've used their Sebenzas for years for batoning and have never so much as loosened them!

Seriously, I'd feel okay about using my Cold Steel knives, most of 'em, for batoning if I had to. I mean, a Recon 1 would hold up pretty well, no? So would the Voyagers, the G.I. Tanto, and the AK-47, with Lynn Thompson's brilliantly designed...ooops, I mean Benchmade's brilliantly designed axis lock. The only linerlock I'd trust would be CRKT's heavier models, like the M21-04, though as someone said, the LAWKS probably shouldn't be engaged. But you're right. It just depends from one person to the next.

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[noss4]

Confederate: It is because I abuse them during the tests that I have been able to see what the limits are firsthand. So I'm more comfortable doing hard tasks without fear of destroying my working knives.

I voted I don't know about batoning with folders because I have not seen for myself what can happen when I do.

I'm the type of person who needs to see for myself before I make a decision

 

[A druid]

I think if you are using a stick, to baton candling, and it is a reasonably heavy folder the should be acceptable, full force trying to split a log. is quite a bit more questionable. I've done the former, and what again even just for fun. also when you're baton in the material. will you be using the knife to try to pry. the wood apart . I answered 2 and was leaning toward one, but I think it should be done, for some consideration, for the tolerances of the specific knife and actual necessity.

Not to be contradictory taking small chips off with light taps should be easily within the tolerances, of a heavy great folder for example my beater bench made pinnacle, which I would do almost anything with partially because I think the knife can take it, partially as a spyderco fan, just because it's a benchmade.

 

[Confederate]

It is because I abuse them during the tests that I have been able to see what the limits are firsthand. So I'm more comfortable doing hard tasks without fear of destroying my working knives.

I know. I was just funnin' with ye a bit. BTW, how many knives would you say you have, and where do you get most of your "test" knives? I enjoyed the one on the G.I. Tanto.

I voted I don't know about batoning with folders because I have not seen for myself what can happen when I do. I'm the type of person who needs to see for myself before I make a decision.

Roger, that. I voted that it would be abuse (in my mind), and that I'd only do it in an emergency. The reason is that I have serious doubts that folding knives are the proper tool for that task but, again, with the provisos mentioned in my last post. Some knives would be better suited than others.

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[noss4]

Confederate: My collection is on the small side about maybe 10 or so I only have one folder a Spyderco Endura, well and a leatherman. I don't have anywhere near the collection as some of you have. Some of you have to much money

I buy most of the test knives myself. A few, about 4 have been donated to me by BF members.

The GI Tanto is a serious beater for sure. If they are consistent one to the other. I never see one breaking batoning wood with wood or a steel hammer.

I guess batoning a folder could be seen as abuse by many. I would chose a fixed blade over one for the job any day myself. But if it works and one comes away with split wood and an undamaged folder then for me It would be just use and not abuse.

When I do test some folders. Batoning wood will be part of it after all the fine discussion on the subject.

 

[Cobalt]

I know. I was just funnin' with ye a bit. BTW, how many knives would you say you have, and where do you get most of your "test" knives? I enjoyed the one on the G.I. Tanto.


Roger, that. I voted that it would be abuse (in my mind), and that I'd only do it in an emergency. The reason is that I have serious doubts that folding knives are the proper tool for that task but, again, with the provisos mentioned in my last post. Some knives would be better suited than others.

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interesting diagram:thumbup:

 

[noss4]

yea it's a good diagram for those who don't understand batoning :thumbup: