Bear Defense?

Smithhammer said:
Don't kid yourself. A round from a .38+P won't do a thing to stop a big bear - it will probably only make matters much worse. If you are going to shoot a big bear, you shoot (and keep shooting) until the bear is dead. And you choose a caliber that will increase the chances of doing that as quickly as possible. You don't aim for the paunch.

There are numerous accounts of large bears taking multiple hits from a much more powerful round such as a .357, head-on, and still charging and attacking the shooter.

If I had a choice between spraying a bear in the face, or shooting it with a .38, I would choose the former hands-down, every time.
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It wasn't meant to be totally serious, just to make the point that OC is nothing more than pain compliance and getting shot hurts a little as well. A determined animal will not be stopped with pain compliance, just as determined people aren't. OC is nothing more than discomfort. Period. I said paunch shot because it would be the worst shot to make, but of course, you knew that's why I said it:rolleyes:

As I said, I am no expert on bear behavior, not even a novice. All I can say is that OC is marginally effective on humans. Anyone trying to convince me it is worth trusting my life to against a large animal better do more than make some general statement and announce that it just makes sense. There are few things which I'd trust to stop a 35 MPH charge by an 800 lb. bear. A can of aerosolized hot sauce being at the bottom of that list.

Ultimately, I recommend folks carry a firearm in their daily lives. Life's full of danger. The danger from a bear is probably not worth worrying that much about, but people do get attacked, just like they get bitten by sharks and struck by lightening. Any decent caliber firearm offers a fierce muzzle blast and a deafening roar. I would think those alone, without actually hitting anything, would be as effective as OC spray against many animals. OC doesn't even always work that well against dogs. Good luck.
 
Don't kid yourself about feeling secure with a handgun with bears. Even with the biggest and baddest handgun you can think of, you still have to make a hit to the spine or brain to stop a bear attack immediately, or slow it down with penetrating heart lung or shoulder shots. Many black bears don't die easily or quickly when even shot with a "deer rifle". They run off about 100 yds or so as they bleed out. In a worst case scenario, that remaining energy could be directed at you. You aren't likely to be carrying your "deer rifle" on your family hiking or camping vacation unless you have it leaning up against the tree at the base camp site.

So you're left with bear spray, a handgun, and other human behavior to make yourself less vulnerable as mentioned above by Sullie. The good part is that most black bears do not attack or exhibit aggressive behavior toward humans and it typically is a matter of degree. But it happens. It is just NOT something to be all hung up about preparing for. Many of us like to think about which caliber for what and which knife for what purpose.... Tis the nature of a forum and the interests of the folks that post.

Here is what I would do.... if I were planning to camp where there are black bear problems, I'd camp somewhere else. If it was grizzly or brown bears, I would have bear spray and a large caliber gun; possibly a shotgun or larger caliber rifle. I will generally have a handgun with me but it may not be on my hip and always within reach. Bad people are a bigger problem. But even with people, there are usually warning signs. Seldom are people such cold blooded killers that they give no warning at all like you see in the movies routinely. But it happens. You're probably dead or seriously injured in which case. Same applies to bears. Bears don't give you much time to react if they are intent on hurting you and they run faster than humans. Even a smallish bear is stronger than your are and they have 4-hands with long finger nails and teeth to fight with. You have a few seconds to react....

I will generally have a handgun with me unless I'm really trying to cut down weight. Doubt I will ever need a firearm against a bear and I doubt I will be trying to explain to the Park Rangers at the Smoky Mountain NP why I shot Yogi. Give them room and give yourself some room. Don't run from a predator; they'll chase you.

At a camp site, if a black bear wanders in, I am more likely to be reaching for my camera than a handgun. Which means I might get hurt.
 
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jdk1 said:
It wasn't meant to be totally serious, just to make the point that OC is nothing more than pain compliance and getting shot hurts a little as well. A determined animal will not be stopped with pain compliance, just as determined people aren't. OC is nothing more than discomfort. Period. I said paunch shot because it would be the worst shot to make, but of course, you knew that's why I said it:rolleyes:

As I said, I am no expert on bear behavior, not even a novice. All I can say is that OC is marginally effective on humans. Anyone trying to convince me it is worth trusting my life to against a large animal better do more than make some general statement and announce that it just makes sense.
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Gotcha. But that's just not been my experience with bear spray specifically, with all due respect. I've seen it evacuate an entire office full of people, choking and gagging, when a bottle was accidentally discharged outside and wafted in through an open window. And the office remained uninhabitable for hours after. I've seen people blinded by it for hours. And more to the point - it has successfully turned many bears in people/bear encounters and avoided further injury - even with big grizz. That's been repeatedly and conclusively documented as fact - not just as someone making a general statement because it "just makes sense," or because they have some Treadwell fantasy about hugging bears.

jdk1 said:
There are few things which I'd trust to stop a 35 MPH charge by an 800 lb. bear. A can of aerosolized hot sauce being at the bottom of that list.
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It's more than "aerosolized hot sauce." But set aside an attachment to firearms for a minute, and try to consider this objectively, as we all should in any situation where we are deciding what sort of deterrent/weapon is most sensible for a given, likely situation - most bad bear encounters happen very quickly. Unless you're above treeline/on tundra, it's a rare situation where you see that bear coming from a hundred yards away and have lots of time to consider options (the first of which should be to start moving away from it). They tend to happen very fast - in which time you need to assess, decide, draw, and fire. Despite being proficient with a sidearm, this is not the time when I want to test my accuracy. And make no mistake - you will need to be VERY accurate, very quickly, on a relatively small area of a fast moving target, in a quickly changing situation where you have likely been suddenly taken by surprise by a large angry animal very close by and you are now likely crapping your pants, unless you have had lots of extensive previous high-stress training with your firearm.

Now think - in this situation, do I choose something that requires me to be extremely accurate, or do I choose something that sprays a cloud, and as long as I'm aiming it in the general direction it needs to go, it's probably going to meet the target? I can't answer that for you, or for anyone. But I can say that if you choose the former, you better be damn good. And by "damn good" I mean a helluva lot better than 98% of the gun-toting public believes they are (as opposed to how good they actually are...).

I've had several bear encounters where there wouldn't have even been time to flip the safety off my spray - much less draw, aim and accurately fire a firearm, no matter how fast you are. Luckily, in each of those situations, the bear chose to go the other way. Otherwise, neither spray nor a firearm would have been able to be deployed before that bear chose to be on me. And that's not uncommon.

jdk1 said:
Ultimately, I recommend folks carry a firearm in their daily lives. Life's full of danger. The danger from a bear is probably not worth worrying that much about, but people do get attacked, just like they get bitten by sharks and struck by lightening. Any decent caliber firearm offers a fierce muzzle blast and a deafening roar. I would think those alone, without actually hitting anything, would be as effective as OC spray against many animals. OC doesn't even always work that well against dogs. Good luck.
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I have no qualms with recommending that there are various reasons why people might want to carry a firearm (as I frequently do personally) but - there are really only a very few calibers of sidearm that one should consider carrying if they intend to use it against a bear - as I said, most calibers that people commonly carry for self-defense (9mm, .38, .40, etc) are not only not going to be effective, but very likely counterproductive. You shouldn't count on a loud "bang" deterring a bear, if you aren't ready to back that bang up with a serious load that will truly stop that bear before it reaches you (hopefully...). Any firepower less than that and you are very likely inviting even more harm upon yourself. Bears are very smart, and will quickly figure out the connection between the thing that just shot it, and the loud bang coming from your direction. And they will usually decide to immediately stop that from happening again, understandably. Or if you're lucky, they might turn and run. Every encounter is different. But counting on that is folly.

Like I said earlier - I'm not dictating what other people should do. Everyone needs to make their own choices, and I'm just explaining mine. But as someone who has spent a lot of time in black and grizz country, I feel an obligation to share what I don't think people should do when I hear certain notions being entertained, usually based on inexperience. And I see a lot of people who I can guarantee are fooling themselves by thinking that strapping a gun to their hip is the best, and only necessary, solution to traveling safely in bear country. Psychologically, I get it. But realistically, for the vast majority of people, it's dubious to put all your eggs in that basket.
 
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Aha! Just kidding:) As with most internet "discussions", which is what I see this as, we all probably agree more than disagree. The main thing seems to be the effectiveness of OC. It is Oleoresin Capsicum, sort of the essence of hot peppers is a simplefied way to look at it. That is the ingredient added to make most hot sauces hotter. It's hot as hell. I've worn it a few times. I've seen a lot of people get sprayed, not just exposed, and some it affects and some it really doesn't. Ask LEOs what they think and you'll get mixed opinions. Knowing it's iffy on people and dogs leaves me with only one conclusion: it's iffy on bear as well. At least, it's not a perfect answer.

As for caliber, I agree. But, as with a self defense (people) weapon, something is better than nothing. A .22 rimfire is a lousy manstopper, but it kills an awful lot of folks and always has. I can appreciate that OC is a viable tool, but knowing OC spray better than most, it ain't all that. I think the advice about behavior and being smart are the important things, but a handgun adds a level of protection above teeth and nails (mine:)). I think you're also right about not knowing a bear is attacking until it's attacking. People have, on rare occasion, used a knife against large animals on top of them. I would think a handgun would be handier than spray in that bad situation. I appreciate your info and insight. We're just offering a different view. Maybe it is based on ignorance, but many of of have dealt with animals, just not bears, and have our own ideas on what we want to protect ourselves with. Be safe.
 
The places where bears are an issue are places where ignorant people camp - car camping campgrounds! People leave garbage and food everywhere, plus there are dumpsters etc. The bears become habitualized and keep returning for an easy, guaranteed meal. It's these habitualized bears that people have to worry about as they will approach people/campsites. It's happened to me in the Sierras. In the backcountry virtually all black bears are skittish and do not want confrontation with humans.

So, as many have said above there are very clear and easy rules to follow when in bear country:

1] Keep your campsite clean
2] Cook all food as far away as possible/convenient from your tent
3] All cosmetics and food should be stored in a bear canister or hung from a tree far away from your tent
4] Cook downwind from your tent.
5] And if you really want to be careful place the clothes you cooked-in inside your bear canister as well.

I camp on average 1-2 times a week in the backcountry [with large populations of black bears], it's *extremely* rare for me to see a black bear, but I always take the above precautions. By personal choice, I never carry bear spray [I'm not saying you shouldn't - just my choice], or a bell, and we can't walk around with rifles/guns in Canada. In terrain next to rivers or bushy alder/bushwhacking terrain make periodic loud sounds to warn any bears that might be in the vicinity - I was just doing this yesterday as I was bushwhacking through alders next to a river in an alpine meadow. If you're car camping and see a problematic bear in the campsite, call the ranger.
 
I just want to know where all these 800-pound blackies are running around, so I can put in for a tag. Can't say I've seen one bigger than 500, and that's not common. ;)
 
Mo, come to Manitoba! 800+ pound bears!!! Exceptional size and colour phases ie. blonde, cinnamon. I must confess, I have not seen one quite that size. But I work at a fly in fishing/hunting lodge in Ontario which offer moose and bear hunts and have friends who are successful(record holding) outfitters in Manitoba.

This is an internet forum where people can comment on anything but I really appreciate the sound advice offered here and this is one area in particular I feel confident in commenting on.
In MY experience NOTHING sends a bear running faster than bear spray.

I had my first black bear experience when I was under 3 yrs old and countless since then. Most often a yell will do the trick or banging of pots and pans in the more extreme cases but I recommend bear spray especially if you are not experienced with them.

Of course there are exceptions to the norm and I didn't want to make light of the situation.
Pro active measures are the best rout and affective reactive responses are necessary to know even though rarely needed.
on a side note-you cannot out run/swim/climb a black bear so retreat is not an option.
And I have NO experience with grizzly bears, this is BLACK BEARS ONLY.
Polar bears are another story.....
 
jdk1 said:
It wasn't meant to be totally serious, just to make the point that OC is nothing more than pain compliance and getting shot hurts a little as well. A determined animal will not be stopped with pain compliance, just as determined people aren't. OC is nothing more than discomfort. Period.
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No, it's not the same,Jdk1. A bear that gets hurt, bit, scratched, shot, punched what ever does not react the same way to getting sprayed.(sorry I can only actually comment on being shot, with bow, cross bow and rifle).
I have only used bear spray once to measure its effectiveness and like I said, I have never seen anything else send one running as fast.
Yes, I feel terrible spraying one but I had to see for myself how a bear would react, my life very well may depend on it, but highly unlikely.
 
I imagine that it's because physical pain like being attacked is not completely foreign to a bear where, being sprayed with a harsh chemical compound that affects most of their senses is. But that's just speculation.....

Also, who ever mentioned the cayenne pepper, thanks! I know it works for my garden with smaller critters, but never tried it with a bear
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
explain how bear spray and no gun would've worked here: http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html
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No way to know how bear spray would have worked, he used his gun and the man himself said it was a "total luck shot".

There are isolated incidents that make the news and can be cited all over the internet. A bear attack that was subcommand by bear spray will not make the news.

I am glad the man had a gun and lived through the attack but again, I must say nothing works as well as bear spray and you will not find too many people who are familiar with bears arguing that.
 
I don't carry any kind of bear protection. The odds of getting attacked by a black bear are so minute that I think it's a little crazy to be so concerned with it and I think it has more to do with the romantic notion of fighting a bear then any real threat assessment. Everyone wants to be the manly man who killed a bear. Cancer, heart disease, car crash on the way to your hike...these ARE how most of us are going to die. Not by some black bear trying to eat your peanut butter. Worry about the things that will actually happen IMO. Do black bear attacks happen? Sure. But I'm not going to carry a 12ga around for the 1 in a million chance just like I don't walk around wearing rubber boots because one day I just might get struck by lightning.

If you're in grizz, or even worse polar bear country, then things start to change. Otherwise, keep your campsite clean and have fun.

Besides, I don't know about you but if I'm going to go I'd rather it be by bear in an instant then over years from colon cancer.
 
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Sullie said:
Mo, come to Manitoba! 800+ pound bears!!! Exceptional size and colour phases ie. blonde, cinnamon. I must confess, I have not seen one quite that size. But I work at a fly in fishing/hunting lodge in Ontario which offer moose and bear hunts and have friends who are successful(record holding) outfitters in Manitoba. ...
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I love Ontario - that's where I bear hunt, and where I'll be bear hunting next month. They don't get huge there (there are some 500-pounders around, as you know), but there's plenty of bears. Manitoba I've never tried. If you know of anyone who runs a good camp there, I'm all ears.
 
Some of you may laugh, but I saw my first bear spray at the store today. Have seen the little sprayers for human > human self defense before, but never bear spray.

They have some very large black bears in PA. They must be drinking the Keystone water.
 
There are almost as many bears here as there are biting flies. I have had them come by the place daily/nightly at times. I keep no garbage here and they pass through to go to the neighbors burning barrel which is nothing more than an attractant for bears. Often they stop by my yard and turn over boulders and logs during the night to feed on ants. They are not much of a problem unless provoked or spooked, and the young ones make for good sausage.
 
liamstrain said:
I thought you could carry regular rifles and shotguns, just not restricted class guns and handguns? Off topic, I know. Just curious.
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You're probably right, but I'm not sure how it works outside of hunting seasons. I've never once seen a person carrying a rifle in the backcountry for safety - not even in the US [WA or CA]. In Grizzly territory, I'd probably rest much better with a firearm. In Polar Bear territory, you be a nut job not to be carrying a firearm.
 
Shotgun said:
I don't carry any kind of bear protection. The odds of getting attacked by a black bear are so minute that I think it's a little crazy to be so concerned with it and I think it has more to do with the romantic notion of fighting a bear then any real threat assessment. Everyone wants to be the manly man who killed a bear. Cancer, heart disease, car crash on the way to your hike...these ARE how most of us are going to die. Not by some black bear trying to eat your peanut butter. Worry about the things that will actually happen IMO. Do black bear attacks happen? Sure. But I'm not going to carry a 12ga around for the 1 in a million chance just like I don't walk around wearing rubber boots because one day I just might get struck by lightning.

If you're in grizz, or even worse polar bear country, then things start to change. Otherwise, keep your campsite clean and have fun.

Besides, I don't know about you but if I'm going to go I'd rather it be by bear in an instant then over years from colon cancer.
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Well said shotgun, I totally agree.
 
I never used to carry bear protection, until was repeatedly charged by a black bear last summer with the final charge placing him about 15 feet from me. Despite yelling, whistle blowing and tarp flapping... it was the longest 10 minutes of my life. til eventually the pot banging cause him to casually amble off.. since than i pack bear spray...a definitive improvement over the tomahawk I had during my last encounter. It's got an effective range of about 30 feet. and a decent enough spray pattern to accommodate for the oh crap jitters.
 
I don't expect to be T-Boned in an intersection today but wear my seat belt and have my air bag armed nevertheless. I don't expect a fire tonight either - highly unlikely really but I replaced the batteries in my primary and secondary smoke alarms plus have two ways to escape my master bedroom if fire cuts me off or tries to trap me.

I don't ever expect to be bothered by a bear or Mtn lion either but carry bells on my pack, have bear spray, and a rifle as a very last resort. I'm not scared or paranoid, just prepared to survive on my own which is what I thought this forum was all about - survival skills and equipment.

There are two critical elements in any survival - hardware (the gear) and software (our mindset). The hardware is easy to procure but the mindset not so much. Each to their own but don't be critical of those who have a survival software/mindset and are taking the necessary hardware and software to survive a two or four legged attack.
 
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