Bearings or Washers?

mqqn said:
Aw, don't be so hard on them.

They'll figure out how to do bearings someday. :p

best

mqqn
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Bearings are cool and I have tens of bearing folders, I don't believe they are necessary for the best performance...More important in the construction in a quality folder are the tolerance and stacking...Guys like Reeve, cook, and Bogi just to name a few have been doing really nice work before the bearing era.

And not to be a fanboy but Chris has done one hell of a job in producing a multitude of decent folders for over 25 years and thats why I give the cranky &a$?-:) respect. 😄
 
bigmark408 said:
Bearings are cool and I have tens of bearing folders, I don't believe they are necessary for the best performance...More important in the construction in a quality folder are the tolerance and stacking...Guys like Reeve, cook, and Bogi just to name a few have been doing really nice work before the bearing era.

And not to be a fanboy but Chris has done one hell of a job in producing a multitude of decent folders for over 25 years and thats why I give the cranky &a$?-:) respect. 😄
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Definitely agree with the last part. :thumbup:

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mqqn
 
mqqn said:
Yea - I am not sure on that either. Lack of knowledge? Who knows. I like the "bearings will wear out faster" than washers. I have even seen people compare the washers to engine crank bearings, and then someone who knows what they are talking about starts educating the washer fan on things like oil-film and babbit etc.

Wheel bearings on cars routinely go 100,000+ miles, all while supporting the weight of a car or truck, with side loads etc. Yea, those are typically tapered rollers, but the concept is the same.

Bearings can be tough, and washers can be weak, and vice versa if the manufacturer does not know how to make what they are making.

Like I originally said, without disparaging either side of the equation, bearings are great, if you have had them and like them (like me) then thank heavens for technology and manufacturing advancement.

If you like washers and it's working for you, then go get you some washers, tiger! There's lots of options to choose.

I just love it when people have to "show you how right they are".

best

mqqn
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I'm similarly confused as to the hate for bearings. I've never heard of a bearing wearing out in a folder. Actually, the beatings will wear out the ti or gall a steel race before it wears out. Just FYI, phosphor bronze washers or nylon washers are not as strong or wear resistant to mechanical friction as stainless steel bearings.

The reason bearings are smoother is the same reason they are better for fitting, less contact surface area.

To be blunt, if you have problems machining in a bearing track, you will probably have problems making a flat washer, meaning you shouldn't be making a knife for sale.

I prefer bearings because I like the action in flippers. In my case, bearings are the best for my purpose. If I was going to attempt to chop down a tree, it wouldn't be with bearings or a knife with washers, it would be with a chainsaw. Having washers or bearings make no difference in most cases.
 
Pittknife said:
I'm similarly confused as to the hate for bearings. I've never heard of a bearing wearing out in a folder. Actually, the beatings will wear out the ti or gall a steel race before it wears out. Just FYI, phosphor bronze washers or nylon washers are not as strong or wear resistant to mechanical friction as stainless steel bearings.

The reason bearings are smoother is the same reason they are better for fitting, less contact surface area.

To be blunt, if you have problems machining in a bearing track, you will probably have problems making a flat washer, meaning you shouldn't be making a knife for sale.

I prefer bearings because I like the action in flippers. In my case, bearings are the best for my purpose. If I was going to attempt to chop down a tree, it wouldn't be with bearings or a knife with washers, it would be with a chainsaw. Having washers or bearings make no difference in most cases.
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I agree completely. I like either, and it is so far down on my list of considerations when buying a knife that it makes no difference.

Under any normal use of a folder (and probably even abusive use) I don't think either type of pivot is likely to fail, or even have problems. I'm pretty sure that lock failure, or blade damage would occur before pivot failure. At least I've never experienced or seen pivot failure. If you are subjecting your knife to things that would make the pivot fail, your using the wrong tool for the job. I think that would apply to both washers and bearings.
 
I see bearings as a plus for aforementioned reasons, and additionally see it as a perk when it's included in a knife. I feel like a lot of people who cite Chris Reeve and other designers / companies for their perfectly good washer-pivot knives are neglecting to consider that just because it's possible to make something work well doesn't mean it's equal or better than the competition.

I'm pretty sure similar arguments popped up when magazine-fed semi-automatic handguns hit the market. "What's wrong with revolvers?" "Too many moving parts." "Colt makes a perfectly fine gun without using magazines." etc etc etc

Don't get me wrong, I don't sneer at washer-pivot knives or see them as outdated, but bearings are, at least from a tolerances standpoint, better. It takes much less fine adjustment to get that centering:lockup:pivot perfection, and it makes it easier for manufacturers to do the same.

I hope (pointlessly, I know) that Kershaw does away with this assisted nonsense and equips them all with KVT. Man, would I like a good bearing manual leek, or a freefall for that matter!
 
Comeuppance said:
I see bearings as a plus for aforementioned reasons, and additionally see it as a perk when it's included in a knife. I feel like a lot of people who cite Chris Reeve and other designers / companies for their perfectly good washer-pivot knives are neglecting to consider that just because it's possible to make something work well doesn't mean it's equal or better than the competition.

I'm pretty sure similar arguments popped up when magazine-fed semi-automatic handguns hit the market. "What's wrong with revolvers?" "Too many moving parts." "Colt makes a perfectly fine gun without using magazines." etc etc etc

Don't get me wrong, I don't sneer at washer-pivot knives or see them as outdated, but bearings are, at least from a tolerances standpoint, better. It takes much less fine adjustment to get that centering:lockup:pivot perfection, and it makes it easier for manufacturers to do the same.

I hope (pointlessly, I know) that Kershaw does away with this assisted nonsense and equips them all with KVT. Man, would I like a good bearing manual leek, or a freefall for that matter!
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Now you've just alienated every fan of assisted openers. :p
 
I've had knives with bearings and washers, but my two favorite knives of all time, UKPK and Spy-DK, don't use either. I'm still curious about bearings. My only experience has been on the low-end side of things. But they are definitely cool to fiddle with.
 
I have 2 that run on bearings. A 560bw and a domino. I prefer them to all my other ones. The 560 has a little bit better action in my opinion. I can't comment on hard use or longevity though.
 
As far as smoothness, the washer supported $25 Rat II is my smoothest knife, the blade just flies out so easily. Washers also have more contact surface area between the blade and handle. I like that, especially on a bigger knife. I suspect it is a stronger design.
 
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I will take the proven durability and longevity PB washers have the record for over the bearing pivots that have not been in use long enough for me to feel they are worth the extra cash. I'm also not into the feeling of the blade swinging so freely after the detent is released, I like the more fluid and controlled feel of a smooth washer equipped knife.
 
I prefer washers due to the simplicity and fewer parts. But as already stated, bearings are certainly fun on flippers, and after reading through these threads I like them a little more...

I have only 2 knives with bearings, a ZT0801 & a CRK Ti Lock...very different approaches to the bearing design, the 0801 flips amazing & does exactly what is expected of bearings. On the other hand the Ti Lock, although amazingly smooth, is at least for me, impossible to flip open to locked position.

Kidcongo posted some great pictures of the disassembled Ti Lock, showing the ceramic ball bearings: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1258311-Let-s-talk-Ti-Lock-A-photo-essay

Bottom line though, far as general use edc folders go, I totally agree with:
bld522 said:
I'm fairly agnostic when it comes to bearings or washers. I'm also agnostic when it comes to AO versus manual. Both are near the bottom of my list of considerations in selecting a knife. Blade steel doesn't even rise to the top of my list. Esthetics, ergos, build quality, size and weight are what matter most to me.
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I am not on the fence or trying to make everyone happy but.... I love them both. I get excited every time there are new designs, techniques, steels, or just about anything that keeps the hobby moving forward. that being said there is always a level of awe and respect that comes when great craftsmanship produces knives that are so smooth that you have to question if its on bearings. I just simply love quality knives old, new, flashy, or simple.
 
There are so many variables the question cannot be answered without further clarification.

There are many types of bearings being used in knives; loose balls in a race, caged balls, caged rollers. There are also hybrids where a cage is used but does not capture the rollers or balls. There are different bearing materials used; 52100 carbon steel, 440C stainless steel & ceramic. There are differing quantities of balls and rollers. The balls and rollers are different diameters. There are different grades of bearings. Assuming all bearings feel the same ignores the fact that bearings are grouped by tolerances. The lower the number, the tighter the tolerances.

The smoothness of a knife is not defined by washers or bearings. A folder with a loose fit on the pivot feels great until the liner pressure is released and/or the pivot screw is backed off and the blade wobbles. The best smoothness is achieved by close tolerances, excellent fit and finish. If the blade is not well finished where the washer and/or bearings touch, the knife will not be smooth. If the pivot is is not square to the liner, the blade will drag and/or bind regardless of the blade finish. If the bearing pockets are not parallel to the blade, the blade will drag and/or bind.

It is good to educate yourself before making a comparison.

The late Phil Boguszewski made flippers before bearings became popular. His flippers worked every time because of the tight tolerances and excellent fit and finish. For example, he hand lapped the washers until they were within .0001" in thickness. His attention to detail made his knives arguably some of the best flippers that have ever been made. I don't know if Phil would use bearings today, but if he did, the knives would be smooth.

Chuck
 
Eodjuggernaut said:
I am not on the fence or trying to make everyone happy but.... I love them both. I get excited every time there are new designs, techniques, steels, or just about anything that keeps the hobby moving forward. that being said there is always a level of awe and respect that comes when great craftsmanship produces knives that are so smooth that you have to question if its on bearings. I just simply love quality knives old, new, flashy, or simple.
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Hellyeah! :thumbup:
 
mqqn said:
Let me guess, you bought a Sebenza recently and it is the bestest knife in the whole wide world. Am I right?

best

mqqn
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Well the Sebenzas have a PB washer with cutouts that hold lube and is basically a closed system. It is a very smooth knife. My 0550 that I just sold was very smooth also. Booth are as smooth or smoother that my Southard.

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But does it make you happy just bagging on people that say the word "Sebenza"?
 
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Screwdriver said:
Well the Sebenzas have a PB washer with cutouts that hold lube and is basically a closed system. It is a very smooth knife. My 0550 that I just sold was very smooth also. Booth are as smooth or smoother that my Southard.

2014-01-28211546_zpsae20e64a.jpg


But does it make you happy just bagging on people that say the word "Sebenza"?
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Was someone talking to you? I missed that part.

So, is that the new improved washer? Hmmmmmm

best

mqqn
 
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