Benchmade steals the spyderhole

Patents and Trademarks are very different, but they both afford the owner a form of protection.

As far as owning ideas is concerned, all things that have been patented, copyrighted or trademarked were at one time just ideas. So there have been millions of ideas that have been owned.
 
What about the people who like both brands? Do you like that knife? Do you like it better this way than you would if it had an oval opening hole?
I think both companies are good knife manufacturers regardless of their business practices, though I would give preference to Spyderco for their full flat ground knives. Personally, I think the Vex is a good looking knife with a useful blade shape and profile, and I would buy it. I prefer the round hole over an oval because, IMO, it looks and works better.
 
What about the people who like both brands? Do you like that knife?

I like both brands and have collected both over the years. Of late, my preference has shifted more to Spyderco because I like their more progressive lineup while Benchmade has retired some of their best models.

I like the looks of the Vex. As some others have stated on this thread, it has similarities to the Spyderco Terzuola Starmate, which has become a very collectible model since it was discontinued.

Will I buy the Vex? If Spyderco granted BM the rights, then I might pick one up. On the other hand, there's too much quality and competition in the production knife world right now for me to open my wallet for a knife that was put on the market without less than the full integrity of its' maker.

The lawyers can sort out the legality of what happened if in fact no consent was given. Whether it is ethical or not, I'll sort that out myself once I get the facts...and I'll vote accordingly with my wallet.
 
Ok, everyone, lets all take a deep breath and calm down.

First off, my disclaimer, I am not going to comment on a particular legal scenario involving specific facts and I am specifically disclaiming that I am in any way entering into an attorney-client relationship with any person with respect to what I am posting.

First, it has been correctly explained that patents are issued for useful, non-obvious devices- basically an invention that can be used for a purpose. A trademark is registered to provide a “mark” that generally denotes the origin of a product, but can not be for a functional item- more on that later. But they are two entirely different things. A patent is a monopoly granted by the government to an inventor to exclude anyone else from making, selling, using a specific invention for a limited and nonrenewable amount of time (currently 20 years). Once that time frame is ended, anyone else can use that invention. During the patent term, the invention can be licensed to other people to use.

A trademark can be registered and used indefinitely, provided that the fees and paperwork are filed and the company continues to use the mark in commerce. The mark generally needs to be marked as such by using the ™ or the ® symbols. Trademarks are used to show the origin of a product- what company it comes from. This is to prevent consumer confusion. Marks can be words, drawings, etc… Now, with the main purposes being to prevent consumer confusion, generally they can not be licensed out to totally unrelated company because that creates consumer confusion. Ok, but think about the fast food franchises- they license out the trademarked names and the trade dress out to franchisees but the parent company strictly controls almost all aspects of the business to assure equal quality. So that is an example of licensing.

However, generally you can not trademark a functional item, and here I will quote the Trademark Manual of Examination Procedures, 4th Ed., which anyone can read at the PTO website.

1202.02(a) Functionality
1202.02(a)(i) Statutory Basis for Functionality Refusal
Effective October 30, 1998, the Technical Corrections to Trademark Act of 1946, Pub. L. No. 105-330, §201, 112 Stat. 3064, 3069, amended the Trademark Act to expressly prohibit registration on either the Principal or Supplemental Register of matter that is functional:
• Section 2(e)(5) of the Trademark Act, 15 U.S.C. §1052(e)(5), prohibits registration on the Principal Register of "matter that, as a whole, is functional."
• Section 2(f) of the Act, 15 U.S.C. §1052(f), provides that matter that, as a whole, is functional may not be registered even on a showing that it has become distinctive.
• Section 23(c) of the Act, 15 U.S.C. §1091(c), provides that a mark that, as a whole, is functional may not be registered on the Supplemental Register.
• Section 14(3) of the Act, 15 U.S.C. §1064(3), lists functionality as a ground that can be raised in a cancellation proceeding more than five years after the date of registration.
• Section 33(b)(8) of the Act, 15 U.S.C. §1115(b)(8), lists functionality as a statutory defense to infringement in a suit involving an incontestable registration.
1202.02(a)(ii) Purpose of Functionality Doctrine
The functionality doctrine, which prohibits registration of functional product features, is intended to encourage legitimate competition by maintaining the proper balance between trademark law and patent law. As the Supreme Court explained, in Qualitex Co. v. Jacobson Products Co., Inc., 514 U.S. 159, 164, 34 USPQ2d 1161, 1163 (1995):
The functionality doctrine prevents trademark law, which seeks to promote competition by protecting a firm's reputation, from instead inhibiting legitimate competition by allowing a producer to control a useful product feature. It is the province of patent law, not trademark law, to encourage invention by granting inventors a monopoly over new product designs or functions for a limited time, 35 U.S.C. §§154, 173, after which competitors are free to use the innovation. If a product's functional features could be used as trademarks, however, a monopoly over such features could be obtained without regard to whether they qualify as patents and could be extended forever (because trademarks may be renewed in perpetuity).
In other words, the functionality doctrine ensures that protection for utilitarian product features be properly sought through a limited-duration utility patent, and not through the potentially unlimited protection of a trademark registration. Upon expiration of a utility patent, the invention covered by the patent enters the public domain, and the functional features disclosed in the patent may then be copied by others - thus encouraging advances in product design and manufacture. In TrafFix Devices, Inc. v. Marketing Displays, Inc., 532 U.S. 23, 34-35, 58 USPQ2d 1001, 1007 (2001), the Supreme Court reiterated this rationale, also noting that the functionality doctrine is not affected by evidence of acquired distinctiveness:
The Lanham Act does not exist to reward manufacturers for their innovation in creating a particular device; that is the purpose of the patent law and its period of exclusivity. The Lanham Act, furthermore, does not protect trade dress in a functional design simply because an investment has been made to encourage the public to associate a particular functional feature with a single manufacturer or seller.
Thus, even where the evidence establishes that consumers have come to associate a functional product feature with a single source, trademark protection will not be granted in light of the public policy reasons just stated. Id.

Now, there are several cases cited above that anyone can look at where companies in the past have tried and failed to register trademarks and trade dress based upon expired utility patents.
So, everyone just calm down, let the lawyers sort it out, and don’t jump to judgments about any company’s morals and ethics until everything is sorted out.

FYI- Spyderco’s patent on the hole is number 4,347,665 and the trademark serial number is 78620166 if anyone wants to look at them.
 
First it was the guys at the local adult bookstore, now this.

I think an event of this magnitude deserves a Congressional hearing. I lost many hours of sleep over someone stealing some empty space (hole) from someone who sells holes. Outrageous.

P.S. let's get some lawyers involved, since as we know, there are hardly any lawsuits in the US of A.
 
No word yet from benchmade or Spyderco...Hopefully they get back to me soon, Im sure the reps that got my email from both companies don't want to comment on anything yet until they talk to their advisers/ bosses...
 
Black Helicopter Hypothesis:

Spyderco and Benchmade are in cohoots, they planned this controversy to get people discussing there respective products. "Any exposure is good exposure - free advertising".
 
No word yet from benchmade or Spyderco...Hopefully they get back to me soon
Why in the world would you think either of the 2 companies would want to launder this possible issue with the public? Unless Spyderco has indeed granted BM the right to use the hole, that would be the only way I think they would make a statement about it. There are internal matters that stay that way.
 
So, everyone just calm down, let the lawyers sort it out, and don’t jump to judgments about any company’s morals and ethics until everything is sorted out.

.

Regardless of patent law, trademark law, US law or mother in law, if Benchmade used the Spyderhole without the consent of Spyderco, it's morally and ethiclly wrong.

We can have a long and drawn out court battle with Benchmade being the winner and it still wouldn't make it right.

The majority of knife-knowin' people associate the large hole with Spyderco and I really dont know why Benchmade would want to so closely resemble one of their closest competitors.
 
On the other hand, it's already precedent that a hole or series of holes can be trademarked. Spyderco can make a pretty convincing case that the single large hole is easily associated with Spyderco. The hole has a functional use as well, but again, easy enough to show that other shape holes are functional too. The first thing I'd do, were I Spyderco, is trot out Benchmade's old ads stating that their elliptical hole works better.
Isn't that the point? If the shape of the hole affects the functionality, then it shouldn't be subject to trademark. Just because another design works better doesn't mean the lesser one can't be patented, especially since the elliptical hole was intro'd by BM well after the round. Therefore, it could be an improvement on a patented design. The hole also doesn't appear on most of the fixed blades, if it did the funtionality aspect could be argued. That's what I think gave Blackwood/BM a leg up with the Skirmish, the 3 hole design was first used on a fixed blade. They had to add a fourth hole because a trademarked 3 hole design by Kershaw was infringed on, but notice how there is still a round opening hole.

I really don't care how this turns out. I don't like the idea of a patent turning into a trademark, it defeats the purpose of the much shorter life of the patent. I'll still buy both brands when it suits me, they make good products no matter how they open.
 
My feeling on the whole Trademark issue is that if a company disagrees with another company's Trademark, they should challenge it and not just use it without permission. That may or may not be the case in this instance, as I still don't know if Benchmade got permission to use the hole.
 
I own knives by both companies and I hope there is litigation over this matter, if it is true that BM is "ripping off" Spyderco's "registered trademark."

Spyderco's putative trademark smacks of an improper attempt to extend an expired patent via trademark law and my prediction is that is the way it'd go at the conclusion of any trial over the matter.

"Theft" as it were, could be properly said to occur if someone out there were making round thumbhole openings in blades whilst Spyderco had exclusive patent rights to the design. That patent has since expired, and if I have it right, Spyderco claims that the hole is now, or has always been, a trademark.

I think that is easily going to fail on the same sort of "functionality" grounds that Harley-Davidson's attempt to trademark its "sound" also failed upon.

H-D's trademark attempt failed for many reaasons, but some of the reasoning people tend to overlook is the "functionality failure." H-D's distinctive sound was a mere byproduct of the functionality of the air cooled 45 degree V-twin operating off of a single crankpin. Nothing about the result of the whole of the parts, imparted anything to H-D's "trade dress" to the point that its "sound" could be a distinctive enough part of the package to gain TM status. No one was ever going to confuse a Harley and a Honda, even if they sounded identical, because the prospective buyer could still read or see distinct symbols on the gas tank, or the guages, or the engine case.

Spyderco is in the same position, ironically because they didn't launch a wave of lawsuits around the use of G-10, FRN, pocket clips, and the hole, as a package. Also, Spyderco uses "non-functional" registered trademarks, such as its actual name, and the shortlegged spider, to give it product differentiation, which only serve to undercut its colorable trade dress infringement claims.

So, BM would have two possible defenses that, IMO, would defeat Spyderco's TM defense. The first is that the hole is functional and the patent on it is expired. A trademark cannot be a vehicle for clandestinely extending a patent due to the functionality test. This is not three stripes, or a swoosh, or a prancing horse we are talking about here, trademarks that impart nothing, except consumer information. We are talking about a drilled hole that showed enough originality and functionality to be awarded a patent. Spyderco has been amply rewarded in the marketplace for that early innovation with a period of monopoly. Enough already. It's like Colt claiming trade dress infringement against every semi-auto ever made, or prospectively made that uses the Browning short recoil operated action and a thumb released bottom feeding magazine. That'd be baloney. Spyderco's trademarked hole is just fresher lunchmeat.

The hole is not enough, unless it appeared on all of their knives as the sole mark itself, to be Spyderco's trade dress. Not even the most casual, moronic, newbie knife buyer is going to confuse a Benchmmade for a Spyderco on the shelves for more than the moment it takes to read the brand names off of the respective products somewhere, or for the illiterate, see either the butterfly or the spider. I believe that a trade dress "confusion" defense of the "hole" trademark would fail.

Addditionally, if the hole is so integral to the trade dress of Spyderco, why wasn't the FRN, the G-10, the pocket-clip, and the hole, trademarked as a "total package" that sets Spyderco unmistakeably apart from its competitors? It smacks of an attempt to extend the patent through trademark.

The answer is again functionality. Such a defense of such an all-encompassing "total package" trademark would have been ludicrous and shot down. It'd be like Levis attempting to claim no one could ever make five pocket blue jeans out of denim of a certain weight. Levis, just like Spyderco, has, and actively uses other "branding" features, such as the rear pocket stitching, and the little red tab, that provide it adequate trademarking in the marketplace.

Just like Spyderco does. Like I said, I hope there is a lawsuit, because some serious overreaching about "intellectual property" will likely get wrist slapped.
 
When is the "spyderhole" going into their fixed blades to give them product differentiation on the shelves?:D

Can't have an unmistakeable trademark on just part of your product line if the issue is about the competition's theft of trade dress and not really about trademarking a functional feature that has an expired patent.
 
Can't have an unmistakeable trademark on just part of your product line if the issue is about the competition's theft of trade dress and not really about trademarking a functional feature that has an expired patent.
Oh yeah. Showing that the hole is only used as a "trademark" on folders would be a good argument that the trademark is really an extension of the patent. Cool.

As for BM using the hole, note that big butterfly right next to the hole. That's a Benchmade.
 
Regardless of patent law, trademark law, US law or mother in law, if Benchmade used the Spyderhole without the consent of Spyderco, it's morally and ethiclly wrong.

We can have a long and drawn out court battle with Benchmade being the winner and it still wouldn't make it right.

The majority of knife-knowin' people associate the large hole with Spyderco and I really dont know why Benchmade would want to so closely resemble one of their closest competitors.

Actually, no. It's actually morally and ethically wrong to attempt to extend one's legitimate monopoly on a patented innovation indefinitely by trying to loophole via the trademark law. It stifles competition and innovation.

Spyderco has been amply rewarded for their innovation via the monopoly granted by the patent. The patent has expired. Now it is time for that innovation to be released from constraint. That is the way things are intended to work.
 
Back
Top