"Best in Show": knife judging

Les Robertson said:
Hi David,

... You are looking at a list of very well known custom knife makers. Most have been doing this for a decade or more. At this point to suspect their heat treat is ridiculous. The cutting ability of each knife, while not tested by the judges. Im sure I would not want to drag any of those blades across my forearm.

I know those damn Martin's Tighe's, Rapp's, Williams and Lynch knives are sharp...I have the cuts to prove it. :D
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:D
maybe you are right Les. You are the expert.. No, I wouldnt want to volunteer to be the heat-testing guinea pig. :eek: :D
but why not have the applicants submit a description of their heat treating
process if it is not empirically evaluated?

Sad to see this has been contentious, even an indictment to some degree,. we're just having a friendly chat. I can only say i am just interested in the process. Thanks all for a stimulating conversation. I appreciate everyone's involvement.
David
 
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Hi David,

I posted a list of winners of the awards at this years Blade Show. There is nothing stopping you from contacting them and asking them about their heat treating methods.

What you will find is that most follow the suggested guidelines recommended for the steel. Certain Temperature for a certain amount of time.

For the forged blades, certain amount of time (or to color) in the fire, then depending on the steel, Water quench, Oil quench or air cooled.

Contrary to some makers...there are not a lot of "secrets" in the heat treating of steel. Differing techniques, yes.

Even if they did submit "empirical" data...do you have proof they actually followed that? Next two witness' will have to sign the paperwork stating that they watched the entire process.

David, at some point you have to trust that the makers know what they are doing.

There actually was a knife maker (don't think he makes knives any more) who never sharpened his knives. He was advised not to sharpen his knives to avoid law suits. I don't think he ever won an award. And he may have had impeccable empirical data. :D

Personally, I run my thumb along the edge of all the winners, just to check there is an sharpened edge....just in case. :D
 
VERY interesting information in this thread. Thanks to those that provided it!

From my limited experience, the judges seem to be doing a FINE job...especially at Blade.

Peter
 
Les Robertson said:
Contrary to some makers...there are not a lot of "secrets" in the heat treating of steel.
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Personally, I like to stick to a no snake oil / voodoo policy when it comes to the makers I work with and the knives I buy. Others may choose differently.

Roger
 
Les,
i like you better without the horns. :D

thanks for the discussion!
david
 
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Hi David,

Horns? LOL :D

I wasn't as annoyed with your concept as I was with Brownshoe (who offers nothing other than to try and stir the pot occasionally...still waiting for his list of shows he has judged at).

Then Ed comes on saluting people. Still waiting to hear from Ed on my questions.

Although I suspect both Brownshoe and Ed wont' answer.

The horns come out to eliminate those who really have nothing to contribute.

I'm still waiting on someone to guess how many makers have asked me why their knives didn't win an award over the last 22 years. No the answer is not 0. :D

I think for most makers the awards process at a show is mostly an after thought. Which is why you get makers submitting a knife with rust on it. It doesn't cost anything to enter...so why not take a shot.

On the other hand I know makers who enjoy competing with other makers and will build a knife for a specific category at a specific show. As you can imagine by doing so they greatly increase their chances to win.

Almost without exception every judge I have worked with takes their choices very seriously. As we understand that most of the maker who win take great pride in that award. Especially if it is their first one.

The award can also provide a monetary award and reward.

Award....the knife is sold specifically because the knife won an award.

Reward...the maker gets other orders similar to the award winning knife. As well their career can be furthered by the knife being professionally photographed and appearing in a knife magazine. As Blade and Knives Illustrated do with their shows award winners.

Yes, more times than not the quorum establishes the rules. Such is the case with knife show competitions. Even the cutting competitions have rules.

You have seen on this forum (other forums...mostly other forums) where someone has listed their favorite maker as "the best" and the forumite then gets "gang banged" by those who disagree with them. Granted mostly by those who have anonymous screen names.

STeven pointed out that while in the Pit at the Blade Show:

I had two makers in The Pit try to tell me the same thing using R.J. Martin's winning 4 Best Tactical awards and Les being one of R.J. dealers as an example, and I asked them both if they had seen R.J.'s award winning knife this year, and THEY HAD NOT.
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Too many ignorant (not stupid...ignorant) are too quick to pass judgment or try to show those around them that they have a greater knowledge base than they actually do (Case in point Brownshoe).

I listed the other 3 makers in the tactical folder competition that came in 2nd, 3rd and 4th (in no specific order). I know all three makers. I have bought and sold knives from 2 of the 3 makers.

Most of the makers that won the awards at the Blade Show I have bought and sold their knives. Some on a regular basis...others not. The other dealer in the room bought and sold knives from some of the makers. The other judge who is a collector/dealer had also bought and sold knives from some of the winners.

Every judge I have ever worked with has their "pet peeve". That one thing they look for on each knife. An "indicator" if you will as to other areas on the knife that may show mistakes. Mine is the uneven grinds in the choil area. It immediately shows you if the maker is left or right handed. At that point you can start looking for flaws in other grinds. Some have horrible grinding errors in the choil area...some makers appear to ambidextrous.

For years there complaints about no Art Knife awards, no Tactical Awards, no Sword awards, no Miniature awards...Blade even added a best handle award! Then a couple years ago just so there was a category for everyone...The Best of the Rest"! Without a doubt...the most fun category!

So the Blade Show does listen and respond to those who ask good questions.

David, you may be on to something. I would suggest you contact Steve Shackelford. However, when you do....have a specific ideas that can be easily implemented in your plan. Saying " I would like to see xxxx included in the judging" is not going to get you very far.
 
Les Robertson said:
Mine is the uneven grinds in the choil area. It immediately shows you if the maker is left or right handed. At that point you can start looking for flaws in other grinds. Some have horrible grinding errors in the choil area...some makers appear to ambidextrous.
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I've heard you say this before and I always wondered how you could tell. I'm glad to finally know, now I can learn how to look for it.

I'd think it would be quite an honor to be a judge of knives in the context of a show like what we're talking about. It would be hard work, I think a lot could be learned just being in a room with guys judging 'best ofs'. We're all judges of knives after a fashion, but usually our judgments don't ripple out beyond our own collecting much.

Les, I'm going to guess that you get asked at least once per show 'why didn't my knife win?'. My hope is that you are asked this in order for a maker to improve upon their work, not to bust your balls.
 
HI Lorien,

We're all judges of knives after a fashion, but usually our judgments don't ripple out beyond our own collecting much.
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Excellent point! Judging starts for the most part starts when you pick up your first custom knife...and never stops.

Les, I'm going to guess that you get asked at least once per show 'why didn't my knife win?'. My hope is that you are asked this in order for a maker to improve upon their work, not to bust your balls.
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At the Blade Show I have never had a maker ask me why their knife didn't win.

I have have had a total of 2 other makers at various shows ask me why their knives didn't win.

So one every 11 years....:D

Compare that to hundreds (probably thousands of makers) over the last 25 years asking me to critique their knives at shows.

Generally I don't have makers ask me questions just to "bust my balls". As they will probably get an answer they didn't want to hear. :D
 
Les - Since you answered your question, in conjunction to what Lorien mentioned, I would think MANY more makers would have asked WHY their knife didn't win?

It would seem that EVERY maker that entered would want to know what things need improvement, or what details were lacking compared to the competition.

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

It would seem that EVERY maker that entered would want to know what things need improvement, or what details were lacking compared to the competition.
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You would think that.

However, many just want a pat on the head and to be told they are doing well.

That said, I have seen an increase over the last 5 years of makers approaching me (and I suspect other dealers and collectors) to critique their work).

Understand that most makers know every mistake on their knives. Often times the ability to limit or diminish those mistakes will be directly attributed the the makers skill (practice) and/or machinery (and their ability to use it).

So while some may think it is politics, a dealer's favoritism, etc. It can be a daunting task to go toe to toe with a world class maker. Given their abilities (due directly to practice and perhaps equipment) the big name maker more times than not will win the award....often over other big name makers.

Does this mean that the lesser known maker cannot win? Absolutely not. Every year at every show that has judging, you will see names of makers you are probably not familiar with.

The next "Great" maker has to start somewhere.
 
peterinct said:
Les - Since you answered your question, in conjunction to what Lorien mentioned, I would think MANY more makers would have asked WHY their knife didn't win?

It would seem that EVERY maker that entered would want to know what things need improvement, or what details were lacking compared to the competition.

Peter
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it can be hard to swallow the bad if you are not ready for it. as in this subforum if you ask you had better have thick skin and maybe even know when a knife is just not what that judge likes style wise

i know that i miss things cause i had looked at the same knife for hours as i make it only to have a friend with fresh eyes point out things (it sure makes me feel dumb to have missed a problem)
 
Of most of the results from the shows I've observed, judged, or arranged for the selection of judges, the cream rises to the top. One might nitpick this choice or that choice, but I'd venture you put three knife-educated judges in a room and have them make a selection, and send three more knife-educated judges immediately following, and the results would be just about the same. In most cases in which I have judged it has been that distinctive.

The selection of judges is not an informal or quick decision. And when I do it they are not selected based on my position as a show promoter. They are selected in most cases based on my 35-plus years as a knife book author, knife magazine editor, knife dealer, knife auctioneer. Simply labeling someone a show "promoter" as that is their only qualification for picking judges is far too simple.
However, the person running the show does pick--because that is part of his job, or he assigns someone he trusts to pick the judges.

The bottom line is the judges I pick are most often the ones I know from personal conversation and interaction over years have a wide knife knowledge and few prejudices--and even if they do have prejudices can set them aside for their judging decisions, as much as humanly possible. In other words the ignorant, and idiots, will not be selected as judges.

As Les so accurately pointed out, if you've not judged or been involved in the process in some way, you are going at it from what I call the standpoint of an "internet knife guru". The internet knife guru has three things: 1. A computer. 2. Time to be on a knife forum. 3. An opinion.

Unfortunately there is nothing in those three criteria about knife knowledge and background to be qualified to post an opinion to others and expect it to carry any weight. An opinion without the bona fides to back it up is simply an opinion. It's like me saying something about hockey--and I've only been to one pro hockey game in my life. I do not frequent hockey forums, as I have no qualifications to make statements there.

For statements by knifemakers about judging, one must consider the vast amount of ego involved in making a knife--and in laying it on a table with 20 or more competitors and hoping your baby, the product of your skill and intellect, will be judged superior to the others.

If it doesn't, then to many a knifemaker it can be only one thing. Poor judging.

If a lot of knifemakers made as good a knife as they think their knives are, there would be some spectacular knives out there. Funny thing I've observed is the better the knifemaker the more humble they tend to be. The most arrogant, egocentric knifemakers I know tend to make second tier knives--but they think they make first tier knives. And some even dare not put that to the test in a competitive judging situation.

I started working with managing knife shows in 1976 for the NKCA. Over those years I started--and ran--the Blade Show for 13 years, the Spirit of Steel show almost as long. And in all that time I have never had a knifemaker tell me they had a bad show because they made the wrong knives for the show, because they had missed the market trend shift, because their prices were too high, or because their quality was not up to snuff.

The uniform reason was always the show promoter's fault--and usually that the promoter has not done enough advertising. I even heard those reasons stated at the SOS show held three weeks after 9-11, when few people dared get on an airplane or travel.

Knifemaking is an egocentric game. And when listening to knifemakers whine about judging results, one must keep the ego side of it in mind. Competing for awards shoves that ego out there and bares it, where it can be easily stomped on. I know that when I pick judges, and why the judges have to have paid their dues. When you sell a couple of hundred or more knives a year, you will handle the great, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And you learn to tell the difference pretty quick.

As for the ego side of things, I've been accused of having a pretty big one of those too--so I feel qualified to make statements about that as well.

Knifemakers do not go to judges and asked why the didn't win because many cannot stand the truth. Or as Bill Adams, formerly of Atlanta Cutlery and Past President of the Antique Bowie Knife Collectors Association once said, "It is hard to tell someone that knows everything, anything. Because the already know everything."
 
Hi Butch,

maybe even know when a knife is just not what that judge likes style wise
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I can only speak for myself when judging "Style" (if the knife is in the appropriate category) doesn't enter into my decision.

However, inappropriate design elements will.

But that is only a very small percentage of the decision. Execution is without a doubt the most overriding aspect of my decision.
 
Hi Bruce,

if you've not judged or been involved in the process in some way, you are going at it from what I call the standpoint of an "internet knife guru". The internet knife guru has three things: 1. A computer. 2. Time to be on a knife forum. 3. An opinion.

Unfortunately there is nothing in those three criteria about knife knowledge and background to be qualified to post an opinion to others and expect it to carry any weight.
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That is why you are the editor and I am merely a writer. Succinct and to the point (that I was trying to make with numerous posts). :D

I know that when I pick judges, and why the judges have to have paid their dues. When you sell a couple of hundred or more knives a year, you will handle the great, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And you learn to tell the difference pretty quick.
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This possibly more so than any other factor gives a judge the perspective needed when looking at knives involved in a competition.

Think about the dealers out there that have been around for 20+ years...how many hundreds of thousands of knives have they looked at, held, bought, sold, traded for!

You can add this to the reasons to attend knife shows. Judges aren't picked from the Internet Guru's...and for good reason.
 
Thanks for the explanation Les.

I hear EXACTLY what you are saying Bruce. I think it is ALL part of how our society seems to feel "entitled" and too many people NEVER can accept that THEY made a mistake or are less gifted, skilled or whatever other adjectives can be thought of.

Part of the allure of the internet and forums, is that ANYONE can be ANYTHING they desire in the anonymity of the internet and comfort of their own domain!

I have little experience and knowledge compared to many, but it became VERY obvious to me that as great as knives look in pictures, that is FAR from holding it.

Peter
 
Hi Les
i was thinking more about posting on the forum so far as style

as like you said at the show you might have a category that style wise is not for you (but need to pick the best of them anyhow :) )

one day i hope to go to a show that i could even put a knife in (would not care if i would win or not so long as i could ask the judges what would have made them better )
and if i would win i wuld still like to hear what i could do better (im glad i dont know everything and can keep reading and getting better )

thank you all again for making this a great read
 
Hi Butch,

as like you said at the show you might have a category that style wise is not for you (but need to pick the best of them anyhow )
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Just to clarify:

I can only speak for myself when judging "Style" (if the knife is in the appropriate category) doesn't enter into my decision.
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What I wrote was that a knife in an appropriate category, regardless of the style, doesn't enter into my decision. Of whether or not the knife should win.

It is the execution of the knife...not the style that gets my vote.

BTW, I have yet to judge a category of knives I didn't like. I always enjoy looking at knives that may be outside my normal "scope". There is always something to learn.
 
Hi David,

For me, i know if i were to make knives, i would rather them be judged on how they worked than how they looked. Mine would be ugly for sure. .. I cant even bake a cake :)
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Then you would make knives to compete in the cutting competitions.

http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/i...award-winners/
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Was heat treat information and what they cut included with these winners?

Or was it just another "Beauty Contest"? :D
 
As has been stated here any kind of reliable performance testing for show knives would be very impracticable and/or inefficient to the point of possibly derailing the competition.

I believe you have to give makers the benefit of the doubt or "trust in them" that they have done the due-diligence to insure the functional/performance aspects of a knife entry match it's aesthetic qualities unless a judge sees/knows/hears something to the contrary.

Here's a couple photos showing where Bruce Bump has tested our 2011 CKCA Cancer Research Bowie blade. He also shared photos of his treating processes. I guess show competitions could require some sort of proof (photos?), if there is such a thing, to be presented with knife entries. But then there's ways makers could cheat or get around that as well. So there's never going to be a perfect knife judging world, at some point you just have to trust in people.

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