Best value in a production knife brand

[22-rimfire]

Like you, AmosPaul, I am very pleased with Spyderco knives. Even the lower end ones are very well made.

 

[leghog]

I've found the best value in knives/brands made by companies which no longer exist. Schrade, Camillus, Ulster, Imperial, Western, Keen Kutter, etc. A couple of examples of best value in current production would be Mora and Victorinox. In all of the aforementioned, a man truly gets a lot of bang for his buck.

 

[22-rimfire]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

Important question. I got a survey from Ace Hardware essentially asking questions that revolve around the same topic. If you have Ace Hardware stores in your area, you know that they aren't the cheapest place in the business, but in my area they serve my day to day needs quite well. Availability is a big issue too with knives.

Consider GEC. I like their traditional knives a lot and they are usually well made with attention paid to detail. But I get tired chasing after some new release. They sell out relatively quickly at their dealers. Price or quality...... with GEC it is consistent quality. You can easily beat their prices but the quality will not be as good overall. So, the value issue comes up with them. It took some convincing when they first started their business, but I am a convert.

 

[flipe8]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

Quality every time.

I don't have a large collection of knives but still consider myself a very passionate knife enthusiast. I really try to make purchases that fit my wants as closely as possible. This also applies to my other pursuits in outdoor activities, with sea kayaking and mountain biking in particular. I've been willing to spend what I have to spend in order in order to get the most out of my pursuits, but don't chase my next purchase. If what I have is working, I'm happy. I think I end up being happy with most of the things I have because I did my homework before buying, I don't settle with what I want, and I don't look outside the price range I've accepted before even starting the hunt for a new piece of gear.

When I've made purchases based on settling or saving a bit of cashola, I've never been satisfied, so I just don't do that anymore.

 

[pinnah]

Is there a particular comparison you would like to look at more closely? I'm not sure what your questions are trying to determine.

Hi Sal. Thanks for asking.

I'm having a hard time understanding your prior assertion that it's impossible for Spyderco to produce a sub-$50 in the US.

Since you've raised the Byrd (below), lets compare the Byrd Cara Cara to some other knives.

Hi Pinnah,

I can't say that I know for sure, but I can opine;

1. The are using softer steels that can be blanked which is much faster than laser cutting on more obstinate steels.
a. These steels are much easier to process; drill, ream, polish, sharpen and tap into place.
b. These steels are much less expensive to purchase raw, more often than not in rolls rather than sheet which is less handling.
2. They are using primarily tumbling to finish the blades (& other parts) with very little hand finishing.
3. They are not using close tolerance close fitting locks and / other parts.
4. They are using softer pins to hold the parts together.
5. They have been making the models for a long time and the tooling is long since paid for.
6. The quality requirements are lower.

We can make byrds in China that sell for the $50 range, but with a 6 to 1 valuation difference, that $50 knife is $200 to $300 made in Europe, Japan, Taiwan or US.

sal

From what I'm seeing at retailers, the Byrd Cara Cara uses (fine blankable) 8Cr13MoV steel and FRN handles and sells for around $30 and is made in China.

The Buck Bucklite Max line of folders use the same basic recipe; (fine blankable) 420HC and FRN handles and sells for under $30 regularly and is made in the US.

Or we could compare the Byrd Cara Cara to the base level Buck 110 which has nicer (or heavier, depending on your views) handles and sells for around the same price.

Now... I've gotten a bad rap on the Buck forum as a frequent critic of recent Buck products. IME, like all lockbacks I've owned (no Spydercos), Buck prone to develop lock rock after periods of hard cutting forces. Pins wear down and the lockbar/blade interface can wear down.

But I don't understand what can justify your claim that you can't make the Byrd Cara Cara here in the US for under $50 or how moving it here would bring up so high in price (with those materials).

I suspect that what is going on here is that Buck is selling the 110 and Bucklite Max in such large volume that they can afford to take a hit on margin to help absorb the increased labor costs.

Another explanation might be that the Spyderco lockback design can't be executed with fine blanked blades and lock bars and requires labor intensive hand finishing to achieve Spyderco's superior tolerance specifications which produces better resistance to lock-rock issues?

 

[juzam182]

maybe they need to start making 22 ammunition. :d

haha, lol!

 

[pinnah]

What is more important? Price or quality?

To which Pirsig (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) notes:

Or more troubling to this discussion...

What I mean (and everybody else means) by the word ‘quality’ cannot be broken down into subjects and predicates. This is not because Quality is so mysterious but because Quality is so simple, immediate and direct.

Speaking as engineer and as a person who has dealt with performance of different products, I agree with Pirsig that quality is that which helps the user achieve and maintain a state of peace of mind. In the face of different uses and different users, this can't be easily described in simple, quantitative measures, which is why we get dizzy in threads like this. And my only addition to this as an engineer is that it's very easy to have increases in quality that don't produce any increase in performance.

Quality is socially constructed. It is something that we, as individuals, can only understand in the context of our culture and more importantly, the people whose opinions matter the most to us.

I see three primary ways of defining quality in things like knives. The first and oldest is seeing the knife (or bike or violin or...) as a bespoke object and as a representation of the craftsmanship of the producer. Here, "craftsmanship" can also mean "the best possible automation". When people droll on a Tony Bose custom or go on (and on and on) about Victorinox's superior tooling and QC processes, both are appealing to this "quality as a reflection of the craftsmanship of the producer" type of quality.

The second way of discussing quality is in a sloppy, less than quasi-scientific appeal to materials (or design), coupled with the generally impossible to verify and very faulty assumption that more expensive materials (or more complex designs or production processes) are directly linked to better performance. This sometimes true but nowhere near as often as assumed. 99% of materials and design discussions of functional objects are rubbish.

The third and most bald-faced way of discussing quality is to fetishize materials for the sake of rarity and price alone. Titanium is "better" for no reason other than it is more expensive. People who believe this are why marketers use premium pricing strategies. There are many consumers who will not achieve peace of mind unless they own a more expensive version of the object made from unobtainium.

Price or quality? They don't belong in the same question. There's no connection between them other than tribal adoration.

 

[22-rimfire]

Price or quality? They don't belong in the same question. There's no connection between them other than tribal adoration.

Like the saying beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so is quality for most people. I like to dwell on the subject somewhat but it is entirely based on a limited view of knives as I don't buy something from every brand or usually multiples of the same knife to compare.

Good post Pinnah about the discussion of quality relative to manufactured goods or knives.

 

[pinnah]

Anything good in that post has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Pirsig.

It's a huge book but worth it. It's a great audio book on CD too.

 

[RamZar]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

Generally, high quality gives you lasting performance but it usually comes at a premium in price which I'm willing to pay because in many instances it'll cost less in the long run. For instance, I apply that to my shoes for various activities: New Balance (only U.S. made models), Salomon and Ecco.

Price or quality? Both. Personally, they're not that mutually exclusive for knives. I'm staying in the $100+ territory for reasonable quality. Most of my purchases lie in the $150-$250 range. By going with the upper brackets I'm usually getting better quality but it varies a lot by manufacturer. The crucial part is value. I cited an example in post #55. A good example is Spydercos made in the U.S. versus Japan. The U.S. ones have some great value like ParaMilitary2 with S30V and G-10 but the Japanese ones like Battlestation with VG-10 and G-10 just glaringly overpriced in comparison.

 

[flipe8]

Generally, high quality gives you lasting performance but it usually comes at a premium in price which I'm willing to pay because in many instances it'll cost less in the long run. For instance, I apply that to my shoes for various activities: New Balance (only U.S. made models), Salomon and Ecco.

Price or quality? Both. Personally, they're not that mutually exclusive for knives. I'm staying in the $100+ territory for reasonable quality. Most of my purchases lie in the $150-$250 range. By going with the upper brackets I'm usually getting better quality but it varies a lot by manufacturer. The crucial part is value. I cited an example in post #55. A good example is Spydercos made in the U.S. versus Japan. The U.S. ones have some great value like ParaMilitary2 with S30V and G-10 but the Japanese ones like Battlestation with VG-10 and G-10 just glaringly overpriced in comparison.

Good post. I've found by focussing on the features that are important to me, I've been in a similar price range that you're generally in. Even though I was spending quite a bit more at times in the past, I found I wasn't getting a significant increase in perceived quality and no difference in performance(based on my experiences). That's not to say I don't really dig some knives that are north of $400, but I'm becoming a lot more critical of the knife as a total package as I go higher up the price ladder. It's to the point where I'm just not willing to part with my money more often than not these days, especially when I consider there are plenty of knives in the $150-250 range that are doing it for me right now.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Great responses, thanx.

Pinnah, you're a funny guy. Thanx for recommendation. I'll chase it down.

Regarding making a byrd in Golden, I guess I can be more specific. I choose not to make any knives in Golden with less than .9 carbon as I have set that as a minimum steel for a blade. CTS-BD1 is our "base" blade material and we only use it on some models. We use steels like 420 for liners, scales and sometimes locks when outsourced. We have found that these lower carbon steels do wear considerably more when used on things like locks and that's why you experienced wear on lock-backs using those materials. We cut our locks and tangs for lock-backs made in Golden with a wire EDM which gives us better fit and wear resistance.

I guess we could make a $50 knife in Golden using the softer materials and stamping them, but we feel we're better off making the "higher quality" models with our limited capacity and using our outsourced vendors for the easier to make models. Hope that helps. I like your engineering approach.

sal

 

[sabre cat]

Great responses, thanx.

Pinnah, you're a funny guy. Thanx for recommendation. I'll chase it down.

Regarding making a byrd in Golden, I guess I can be more specific. I choose not to make any knives in Golden with less than .9 carbon as I have set that as a minimum steel for a blade. CTS-BD1 is our "base" blade material and we only use it on some models. We use steels like 420 for liners, scales and sometimes locks when outsourced. We have found that these lower carbon steels do wear considerably more when used on things like locks and that's why you experienced wear on lock-backs using those materials. We cut our locks and tangs for lock-backs made in Golden with a wire EDM which gives us better fit and wear resistance.

I guess we could make a $50 knife in Golden using the softer materials and stamping them, but we feel we're better off making the "higher quality" models with our limited capacity and using our outsourced vendors for the easier to make models. Hope that helps. I like your engineering approach.

sal

Sal,

Thank you so much for your comments in this thread. It has really made a huge difference and I, for one, have learned much. I am sure that many of us have a better understanding of the challenges knife companies face in today's market.

I have to ask though, if you don't stamp the knives made in Golden, how do you produce them? Laser?

BTW, thank you for making the Sharpmaker knife sharpener. IMHO, it is, dollar for dollar, the best sharpener in the world.

 

[pinnah]

Sal, your response makes perfect sense from an engineering standpoint but even more importantly, from a brand management approach. Nothing is more deadly than dilluting a brand identity. It's one way and next impossible to repair. I would pay double the street value for Bucks the way they used to make them.

Thanks for great and patient responses.

 

[palonej]

You, Mr Glesser, are truly one of a kind!
Think I'm safe saying we really appreciate your presence and knowledge!!
Thanks for sharing it with us.
Joe

 

[Sal Glesser]

Sal,

Thank you so much for your comments in this thread. It has really made a huge difference and I, for one, have learned much. I am sure that many of us have a better understanding of the challenges knife companies face in today's market.

I have to ask though, if you don't stamp the knives made in Golden, how do you produce them? Laser?

BTW, thank you for making the Sharpmaker knife sharpener. IMHO, it is, dollar for dollar, the best sharpener in the world.

We cut all of our blades with a laser.

Thanx all for the kind words. Hope I could help. I don't normally follow the general forum, just too busy. I normally hang out at the Spyderco sub forum. Just happened to notice this thread on the heading page.

sal

 

[22-rimfire]

Sal, you certainly introduced a different element and perspective to this thread. When I was 8 years old, judging quality on something was a lot different than today. I would have been very happy with a Rough Rider or Byrd branded knife when I was 8 years old. Now.... not so much, but that is not a criticism at all on Spydie. I was absolutely thrilled as a kid to own a Case Barlow as my first "good knife". Now, I seldom buy Case branded knives or even look at them.

 

[leghog]

Price or quality? They don't belong in the same question. There's no connection between them other than tribal adoration.

The consumer can often get quality inexpensively or can also get quality quite expensively.

I'll agree with what I infer you are saying --- there isn't a direct correlation between price and quality.

 

[pinnah]

The consumer can often get quality inexpensively or can also get quality quite expensively.

I'll agree with what I infer you are saying --- there isn't a direct correlation between price and quality.

Leghog, you infer correctly. I'll try to go beyond this in fact.

My personal summary of Pirsig's excellent book is that quality is that which produces a state of peace of mind. And, one path to a state of peace of mind is through skill and involvement in the making, modification and maintenance of the object - hence, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. The protagonist found more peace of mind riding an old beater Honda than his friend found riding a new BMW.

As a young skier, I read an essay by Swedish great Ingmar Stenmark. He advised young skiers to not fall into the trap of buying the newest and greatest hot ski every year. Instead, he advised that the best way to gain great skill was to use the same ski until you've filed the edges off of it and to learn how to adjust your technique to pull the maximum performance out of the ski. He argued that if you chased equipment, you would not focus enough of your own skill.

As an egineer, I've come to believe that design trumps material. I junker pickup truck is better than a quality Porsche sports car if the job is to haul firewood. A convex ground blade throws curls better than a hollow ground blade does. These are design observations and materials have nothing to do with it.

For me, quality happens when I choose/find the right design and then stick with that and focus on my skill. For general working with wood, the Mora Companion is well suited design-wise and for sure, that knife has a lot left to teach me in terms of my skills.

I've the same thing to be true about knives as about skis and bikes. It's the rider, not the bike. It's the skier, not the skis. It's the user, not the knife. All of this to a point determined by the general design. Price doesn't fit into this for me.

Garfinkle said that statistics tell you nothing about the world but they do tell you about the values of those who created them. In the same way, when somebody tells me that such and such is a quality knife, I've learned little about the knife but a lot about that person.

 

[Sal Glesser]

I believe that is is also true that a well designed product, poorly made will survive longer than a poorly designed, but well made product.

sal