Best value in a production knife brand

The first company I was aware of with MAP (minimum advertised pricing) was ZT (Kershaw). The word advertised is very important. GEC was the second. Not a fan in general. But I understand the concept and the potential benefit to small dealers. I suspect when you see online "click this box for the price" it may reflect the seller skirting MAP, but I always took it as a marketing gimmick. I avoid such things and seldom click the box. Just show me the price; I will buy or not. Don't make me put it in my "cart" first.....
 
mjpgolf1 said:
Unfortunately for them Amazon delivers overnight and two day. So lots of their knives are just sitting in the same spot every time I walk in. They do have great pricing on guns though and they seem to keep those moving.
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Once upon a time, I owned and operated a brick and mortar knife shop. A good shop will go through each knife and make sure the grinds, finish and operation are good. They will have a few of each model that you can pick through to get "just" that right one. They will offer sharpening services.

This comes at a cost....the cost to the business is very similar to the manufacturer's cost...you have overhead, labor costs and profit. The increased price offsets many of the services offered.

With Amazon, you get free shipping through Prime(or a minimum otherwise) and no sales tax(this seems to be creeping away, though). You will generally get NO personalized service. Similar pros and cons to big box stores as well.

If EVERYONE purchases from Amazon/Big Box....more brick and mortar stores will close up and the consumer will eventually pay the price, as the competition is gone and Amazon/Big Box decide to charge whatever they want, and screw everyone.

FWIW, here where I live in SoCal...there are no cutlery stores for within about 100 miles, and there used to be about 6. I accept this.....belt sharpen my own knives and have learned over many years to take care of my own needs as necessary.....but what about the many people who need knife sharpening? There are maybe two such services offered here, within a 40 mile radius. That's a good proper sharpening mind you, not something done in a lawnmower shop on a 3600 rpm bench grinder:eek:

As a consumer in the US...you have to know what is most important to you. If price is the most important consideration, you have to be willing to give up service and selection, as the cost-saving factors involved in a business being profitable will limit the offerings to only the most popular, and will use the minimum amount of staffing to accomplish that goal.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
.....As a consumer in the US...you have to know what is most important to you. If price is the most important consideration, you have to be willing to give up service and selection, as the cost-saving factors involved in a business being profitable will limit the offerings to only the most popular, and will use the minimum amount of staffing to accomplish that goal.
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I unfortunately know the answer for most to your question. Price Price Price..... You can read it here everyday if you choose to in one thread or another especially for the younger crowd. I haven't purchased a knife through Amazon. I have purchased a Spydie Native years ago and some Gerbers at WM. I prefer to handle the knife I want to buy and compare options with other knives. I respect the fact that it costs money to maintain a broad cutlery inventory visible to customers and as such, I usually buy in-person if they carry the knife I want even if it costs more. But there are limits to that arrangement. I want fair prices based primarily on the cost to the store; not some inflated cost relative to online sellers just because a particular knife is popular (ZT, Benchmade, and some Spydies like the PM2 come to mind). I am willing to pay a higher markup over cost at stores. I feel the same way about camping gear, firearms, ammunition, and so forth.
 
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STeven hit the nail on the head, but I might add that big box stores can stop selling knives on a whim (and probably will at some point in the future).
 
STeven's description of the situation is accurate. The question of "what is a fair price" becomes the issue. Kinda like "paying your fair share of taxes".. What that number is nobody seems to agree.

sal
 
Sal, I tried to ask a question earlier but didn't state it well. You (and others) have stated that you can't produce knives in the sub-$50 range unless you make them in China.

Noting that pretty much all sub-$50 knives are using fine blanked steel, can you comment on how Mora, Victorinox and Opinel do this in Europe and Buck and Case do this in the US?
 
22-rimfire said:
I unfortunately know the answer for most to your question. Price Price Price.....
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Right.

My wife is a photographer and I used to be a bike mechanic and sm still an active cyclist.

IMO, the core value proposition of a small local brick and mortar is hands on service.

Pre-internet, local camera and bike stores had to compete with mail order supply houses. But, the local store had the advantage because the consumer had no access to knowledge and expertise about the product. They had to go to the local expert.

Today, we all hold a galaxy full of expertise in our hands via our smart phone. The "expert" at the local store has been dethroned.

My saw local local camera shops fold when camera became digital and largely unfixable. With no corner on the expertise and no ability to provide service, they died.

Local bike stores that survive, do so because of service, primarily.

Other than sharpening and regrinding, knife shops don't generally offer needed service. Like boot cobblers, iknife service becoming something that is based on shipping
 
pinnah said:
Right.

My wife is a photographer and I used to be a bike mechanic and sm still an active cyclist.

IMO, the core value proposition of a small local brick and mortar is hands on service.

Pre-internet, local camera and bike stores had to compete with mail order supply houses. But, the local store had the advantage because the consumer had no access to knowledge and expertise about the product. They had to go to the local expert.

Today, we all hold a galaxy full of expertise in our hands via our smart phone. The "expert" at the local store has been dethroned.

My saw local local camera shops fold when camera became digital and largely unfixable. With no corner on the expertise and no ability to provide service, they died.

Local bike stores that survive, do so because of service, primarily.

Other than sharpening and regrinding, knife shops don't generally offer needed service. Like boot cobblers, iknife service becoming something that is based on shipping
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Right on.....PRECISELY.
 
pinnah said:
Other than sharpening and regrinding, knife shops don't generally offer needed service. Like boot cobblers, iknife service becoming something that is based on shipping
Click to expand...

Except for being able to find out what it feels like in hand; how many times do you see knives for sale here on the exchange because they bought it online, and it feels like crap in their hand?
Or being able to choose the one you actually want...there are variations in production knives.

And by the way, we still have a boot/shoe repair shop in Windsor; my wife and I both have brought boots there, because paying $10 to get them fixed was way more economical than buying new shoes or boots.

I used the monetary savings to buy another knife. :)
 
Retail is dying (shrinking) and even more so for smaller outfits. First the big box stores like Walmart killed off the mom and pop shops and then the Internet is slowly eliminating bigger (not the giants) retail outfits. Sports Chalet and Sports Authority (the latter was a good source for heavily discounted knives using coupons) are history. Macy's has serious issues. On the other hand, Amazon is opening up a few test retail stores as a way of highlighting its offerings but with same as online pricing.

As far as I know, we have four brick and mortar knife stores in the greater Los Angeles metro area but none are that close to West L.A. I've visited and purchased from three of the four but only once each. Prices are not that great.
 
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pinnah said:
Sal, I tried to ask a question earlier but didn't state it well. You (and others) have stated that you can't produce knives in the sub-$50 range unless you make them in China.

Noting that pretty much all sub-$50 knives are using fine blanked steel, can you comment on how Mora, Victorinox and Opinel do this in Europe and Buck and Case do this in the US?
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Hi Pinnah,

I can't say that I know for sure, but I can opine;

1. The are using softer steels that can be blanked which is much faster than laser cutting on more obstinate steels.
a. These steels are much easier to process; drill, ream, polish, sharpen and tap into place.
b. These steels are much less expensive to purchase raw, more often than not in rolls rather than sheet which is less handling.
2. They are using primarily tumbling to finish the blades (& other parts) with very little hand finishing.
3. They are not using close tolerance close fitting locks and / other parts.
4. They are using softer pins to hold the parts together.
5. They have been making the models for a long time and the tooling is long since paid for.
6. The quality requirements are lower.

We can make byrds in China that sell for the $50 range, but with a 6 to 1 valuation difference, that $50 knife is $200 to $300 made in Europe, Japan, Taiwan or US.

sal
 
RamZar said:
Retail is dying (shrinking) and even more so for smaller outfits.
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Cool....you all win.....but not really!

You, Pinnah and ichor can shop at the same webstore of you dreams.

Lose a screw...No retailer to help you out. Need advice on steels? Everything is on the Internet! Yay!

Entitlement for everyone! Long live Soylent Green!!!!!

Man, I'm glad I never had kids and look forward greatly to dying at some point soon...this is tiring and trying!

The Great Experiment.....failed!!!!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Sal, is not 8Cr13MoV fine blank-able?

Are the blades on the Byrds hand finished and does that produce a more consistently good edge?

EDITED TO ADD: Does the production of close tolerance locks demand more human labor to achieve?
 
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Kohai999 said:
Once upon a time, I owned and operated a brick and mortar knife shop. A good shop will go through each knife and make sure the grinds, finish and operation are good. They will have a few of each model that you can pick through to get "just" that right one. They will offer sharpening services.

This comes at a cost....the cost to the business is very similar to the manufacturer's cost...you have overhead, labor costs and profit. The increased price offsets many of the services offered.

With Amazon, you get free shipping through Prime(or a minimum otherwise) and no sales tax(this seems to be creeping away, though). You will generally get NO personalized service. Similar pros and cons to big box stores as well.

If EVERYONE purchases from Amazon/Big Box....more brick and mortar stores will close up and the consumer will eventually pay the price, as the competition is gone and Amazon/Big Box decide to charge whatever they want, and screw everyone.

FWIW, here where I live in SoCal...there are no cutlery stores for within about 100 miles, and there used to be about 6. I accept this.....belt sharpen my own knives and have learned over many years to take care of my own needs as necessary.....but what about the many people who need knife sharpening? There are maybe two such services offered here, within a 40 mile radius. That's a good proper sharpening mind you, not something done in a lawnmower shop on a 3600 rpm bench grinder:eek:

As a consumer in the US...you have to know what is most important to you. If price is the most important consideration, you have to be willing to give up service and selection, as the cost-saving factors involved in a business being profitable will limit the offerings to only the most popular, and will use the minimum amount of staffing to accomplish that goal.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Most outdoor shops do not offer any of these services anymore anyway, at least in my area. They sometimes have a Worksharp sitting on the counter for customers to demo but that's it, and that's more about trying to sell a Worksharp and not about offering a customer a nice service to go with the knife they charged them too much for.

With the wealth of knowledge on the internet it's allowed the general public to become more versed in all things really. Instead of spending $50 to get a knife sharpened you can buy your own system and watch a video to get you started in learning the craft yourself. This is both good and bad. It's good in that we can become more hands on and learn things we never thought we could do by simply watching a video.

For another example I'm a BMW nut. I have a couple older models that I cherish and only drive when the sun is out and the roads are dry. I basically rebuilt these cars from the ground up by researching, reading, and watching videos. I would say I saved at least $20k over the years in service bills if I would've had the work done at a shop, and to be honest I feel good knowing that I'm the one who did the job and I know every nut and bolt etc was put on correctly and done right. That's just one example of things I've done and learned because of the information available. Of course the downside to this is that the local tradesmen have gone by the wayside. Why spend $100 an hour to get an issue fixed with one of my cars when I can research and do it myself.

Its actually quite interesting that this thread has turned this corner because earlier when I was speaking about how knives are overpriced I had many people saying that part of the justification of these manufacturers pricing knives so high is because of the services offered after the sale. So I guess I would ask why I need to pay even more at a local store to support yet another business when included in the high price tag of the knives I buy are things like lifetime warranties and sharpening services?

People are generally pretty good at saying we need to support the brick and mortars and the local businesses, but when it comes down to it "everyone" looks for the best deal when they are shopping for something. Unless you are filthy rich and just like pissing money away we all do it.

I know its a bit cold but nice things are expensive enough now a days without spending more just so "Larry" down on the corner can keep his shop open. It's unfortunately just how my generation (I'm 37 years old) does things now, and quite frankly people have done it for years. Sure everyone feels bad when "Larrys" shop closes down, they see him at the supermarket and tell him they are so sorry, but people aren't going to just throw money down the toilet because someone else has bills to pay. I know that there are many occasions where I asked if someone could match an online price and they said no so I passed and ordered it online. I would think making a little is better than making none, so if a shop owner doesn't want to sell a knife for what I can pay for it at 10 different places online then that's his own fault and his own stubbornness. Businesses need to be competitive now a days more than ever and unfortunately the ones that don't will be left behind. The Internet isn't going away and no one is going to come down and take our phones and tablets away so people need to just accept that and figure out a way to make it work.

If you can't beat them, join them.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
People are generally pretty good at saying we need to support the brick and mortars and the local businesses, but when it comes down to it "everyone" looks for the best deal when they are shopping for something.
Click to expand...

I have bought some Benchmades at the local gun store for $30 to $40 more than I could get them for online...because they were there, and could have them right now.
You want to talk about our generation?
At 39 I'm right in the same generation, and even more than looking for great deals, we are damned impatient.

When we want things, we want them now. :)

The next generation is even more lazy and impatient; cereal sales have gone down because it's too much time and work to wash a bowl. Seriously, I'm not even making that up. :(

http://fortune.com/2016/02/25/millennials-cereal-sales/
 
stabman said:
I have bought some Benchmades at the local gun store for $30 to $40 more than I could get them for online...because they were there, and could have them right now.
You want to talk about our generation?
At 39 I'm right in the same generation, and even more than looking for great deals, we are damned impatient.

When we want things, we want them now. :)

The next generation is even more lazy and impatient; cereal sales have gone down because it's too much time and work to wash a bowl. Seriously, I'm not even making that up. :(

http://fortune.com/2016/02/25/millennials-cereal-sales/
Click to expand...

Oh I agree 100%. I have done the same and your right, it's all about impatience. I'm generally ok with overnight or two day shipping on most things though, especially if I can save quite a bit and not pay tax.
 
stabman said:
I have bought some Benchmades at the local gun store for $30 to $40 more than I could get them for online...because they were there, and could have them right now.
You want to talk about our generation?
At 39 I'm right in the same generation, and even more than looking for great deals, we are damned impatient.

When we want things, we want them now. :)

The next generation is even more lazy and impatient; cereal sales have gone down because it's too much time and work to wash a bowl. Seriously, I'm not even making that up. :(

http://fortune.com/2016/02/25/millennials-cereal-sales/
Click to expand...

With Benchmade the difference between MSRP and MAP is only 15% so for a Mini Grip a difference of less than $30 is not bad at all. Try that with a Spyderco ParaMilitary2 with a 40% off MSRP MAP and the difference is $75!

Cereal takes too much time and is messy specially since you can have a nutrition bar and coffee! Easy-peasy! :)
 
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