Best value in a production knife brand

[mjpgolf1]

Cool....you all win.....but not really!

You, Pinnah and ichor can shop at the same webstore of you dreams.

Lose a screw...No retailer to help you out. Need advice on steels? Everything is on the Internet! Yay!

Entitlement for everyone! Long live Soylent Green!!!!!

Man, I'm glad I never had kids and look forward greatly to dying at some point soon...this is tiring and trying!

The Great Experiment.....failed!!!!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Steven, please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are salty with the world and its new ways. You have to keep in mind that we personally here didn't invent the Internet and put local shops out of business. Also I would like to ask, when you shop for a car do you go online and look for the best price or do you walk in a dealership and pay retail window sticker? My family has owned car dealerships for over 40 years and you want to talk about getting your brains beat in. Customers come in loaded with printouts wanting to pay nothing for the new car while getting full retail for their trade. All businesses have changed and people are guilty of what we are talking about here everyday. Even when they don't realize it. It seems to be ok when it benefits them though. I would venture to say that somewhere in your day to day life you use the Internet and benefit from it. I'm sure you've bought items online to save money and I would bet you price shop items you may buy in the future.

Also when you lose a screw on a knife the manufacturer is pretty good about sending out a new one. I would hope that would be one of those things that would fall under a lifetime warranty that we pay up for.

 

[ichor]

+1 Just for you S.G. (who never benefits from prices on the Internet...oh, wait... ;')

 

[Sal Glesser]

Sal, is not 8Cr13MoV fine blank-able?

Yes it is, Chinese makers prefer to work with steels they can stamp. Some Chinese makers are beginning to work with higher carbon imported steels, but the prices are much higher.

Are the blades on the Byrds hand finished and does that produce a more consistently good edge?

There is a fair amount of hand work on the byrds. We have pretty tough requirements. Some are better than others. But in general, they try to be as efficient as they can. I think things like good edges is skill and attention to detail.

EDITED TO ADD: Does the production of close tolerance locks demand more human labor to achieve?

It adds more attention to detail and more expensive equipment. It also adds time to assembly. They can't just "throw" them together like some of the above comparisons.

Is there a particular comparison you would like to look at more closely? I'm not sure what your questions are trying to determine.

sal

 

[Sal Glesser]

+1 Just for you S.G. (who never benefits from prices on the Internet...oh, wait... ;')

Many, maybe even most of the dealers wanting us to do something about Amazon and Walmart's prices were internet dealers. Not just B & M dealers.

sal

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

There is very tough competition within production brands, it's very hard decision making to choose which one would suits best and biggest value for money....

As from my perspective, there is certainly a level of advantage buying production - over custom knives and that is main difference: saving /price..... While still getting purpose serving knife,which will complete every task probably same way as multiple times more expensive custom knife....

Production knives are generally not made to such high tolerances,however some are offering amazing quality close or comparable to customs. QC vary from one brand to another (feedback on each is easy to find on Internet these days)... and to make best of your money depend only and entirety on individual needs and taste...Best answer to this thread could give guys, who do have and own such a large collections that it includes as much knives as possible from variety of producers..... I can only compare knives from small collection, here on this forum are guys who have such a large collections, that they would put any museum into shame maybe these folks may have something to write here and post few nice photos

 

[mjpgolf1]

Many, maybe even most of the dealers wanting us to do something about Amazon and Walmart's prices were internet dealers. Not just B & M dealers.

sal

Seems like most of the bigger online knife retailers are inline with Amazon pricing now. I'm sure they would like to price them higher and make more, but with online sales it's all about high sales volume and higher prices take away from sales. I would think that you as the owner of Spyderco would like as many of your knives in the hands of users as possible rather than your retailers making more on selling less product.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Seems like most of the bigger online knife retailers are inline with Amazon pricing now. I'm sure they would like to price them higher and make more, but with online sales it's all about high sales volume and higher prices take away from sales. I would think that you as the owner of Spyderco would like as many of your knives in the hands of users as possible rather than your retailers making more on selling less product.

That's true, but we also don't want to be reduced to only two customers. Very large dealers will sell product for less than they pay for it using it as a lost leader. Few dealers can do that. We're trying to level the playing field a bit by having a minimum advertised price.

(Just noticed it's snowing quite heavily )

sal

 

[ichor]

Wow. where are you Sal? Its 74 and partly cloudy in Boise

 

[22-rimfire]

The main ordering I do online are books, hard to find tools, parts, .... basically stuff I have trouble finding locally. Knives..... yeah, through a select few dealers that are mostly members here. I am a kindle person, and amazon gets a lot of small orders from me. I pay sales tax with Amazon. That is something that is changing nationwide slowly for the big boys. I do buy knives at brick & mortar stores and actually prefer to do so. I may look them up on line, but my purchase is usually at a store except for knives that are not sold in my area. The last batch of knives I purchased were from the un-named big knife store in East TN. I stop there when I am driving by, usually on business as it is still a bit of a drive for me. The Blade show is actually closer. Hit there maybe 3-4 times a year and always buy knives (every single time, it's a candy store).

I refuse to pay for Amazon Prime. If you order a lot of stuff, the shipping or promptness of the shipping is worth it. But my orders other than kinle books are sporadic.

 

[Sal Glesser]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

 

[22-rimfire]

Price or quality? Quality for me as I have gotten way past the really cheap stuff other than Condor (love their products). I still have to feel that it is a value at the price in general. I like service in person which is one of the reasons I like regular stores.

I mentioned earlier in the thread about buying the Kiwi 4. I love this knife and it sings quality. I always felt it should be about $20 less expensive, but it was not a deal breaker. The Native 5 sings quality, but a little more expensive than I like with G10. No complaints really.

 

[mjpgolf1]

Sal that's a great question but unfortunately it's just not that easy for me to answer cut and dry. I would say that it depends on the product one is buying and what it's use is for. Obviously a good mix of both good quality and good price is ideal for a consumer. However sometimes that's just not possible.

To set the stage I have to tell you that I'm not hard use knife guy. I'm not an outdoorsman, although I do go to the shooting range every weekend. I carry a knife and a light, along with other stuff, everyday. So to me a knife is more like a watch or peice of jewelry to go with my style of dressing for that day. I do use them but it's usually just to open an envelope or a package, but I'm just one of those guys who likes to always be prepared for any situation that may arise, so I keep my knives in pretty much new condition for a long long time. So of course for me quality is important because I like nice things. However as I mentioned earlier in this thread there comes a point where a consumer starts to question whether the item they bought is worth the price they paid for their uses.

As I said Sal, that's a hard question to answer straight forward. If I was a billionaire then quality would be my only concern, but because I'm not I try to keep a good balance of having nice stuff and still being able to comfortably afford them without feeling like I'm throwing money down the drain.

 

[Knave]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

I'm certainly willing to pay more for quality. Good warranties and customer service, like yours, are worth a premium as well. I also like to give business to companies that maintain a US manufacturing presence. Sure, prices have gone up, but you (and Benchmade, ZT and CRK) make great products and go the extra mile. I think that deserves some loyalty. After all, how many other company owners would participate in a discussion like this?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[miltmaldo]

I use to get both now I only get quality .

 

[22-rimfire]

Millionaire's are some of the "cheapest" people I have ever met in terms of spending a dollar. As you said, I seek balance also. I use knives a lot but my hard user pocket knife tends to be a large 111mm SAK. I do like nice stuff. All you have to do is look at my firearms. Nothing cheap there.

 

[Kohai999]

Steven, please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are salty with the world and its new ways. You have to keep in mind that we personally here didn't invent the Internet and put local shops out of business. Also I would like to ask, when you shop for a car do you go online and look for the best price or do you walk in a dealership and pay retail window sticker? My family has owned car dealerships for over 40 years and you want to talk about getting your brains beat in. Customers come in loaded with printouts wanting to pay nothing for the new car while getting full retail for their trade. All businesses have changed and people are guilty of what we are talking about here everyday. Even when they don't realize it. It seems to be ok when it benefits them though. I would venture to say that somewhere in your day to day life you use the Internet and benefit from it. I'm sure you've bought items online to save money and I would bet you price shop items you may buy in the future.

Ummmmm, I don't live under a rock.

Of course I use the internet and get deals....even more importantly, I have dealer accounts for knives and lots of other toys...because....I still sell knives for a profit.

Everything I sell on BFC is from my personal collection, and I have never crossed between the two, otherwise, I would have a dealer account here....that's called integrity...and Sal called attention to it when I was a wee peanut.

FWIW, I paid that invoice price on my truck when I ordered it 14 years ago, and it's still going strong....because I have very specific requirements, I can't ever find a vehicle on a showroom floor that meets them. I drive my US made truck to death and buy a new one, usually have them for 10+ years.

IF there were B&M stores for sporting knives selling what I needed, I would support them.....it's how I roll....as long as they are not big box. The caveat being the last washer/dryer i got....tried to by local, but the service and selection sucked. Got a nice set of units last year at Best Buy....very happy with them AND the price.

Got a handgun last year, locally and it was pretty agonizing but not mostly because of the shop...just the state laws...they suck....better than NY though, which is where I grew up.

Also when you lose a screw on a knife the manufacturer is pretty good about sending out a new one. I would hope that would be one of those things that would fall under a lifetime warranty that we pay up for.

You don't always get a free screw, and it is ridiculous to EXPECT one if the warranty is not specific as to that...what you HOPE(want) and what you GET(need)? Often quite different.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Oilers Fan]

I feel that CRKT makes some of the best bang for your buck knives out there. I just wish they would step up on some of the materials sometimes. Even using a steel such as 154CM would be an improvement, and I'd be willing to pay a bit more for it. each of my CRKT knives has seemed to be very well made, but maybe I have just lucked out thus far.....

 

[Herlock]

Hi! Interesting. From my personal experience, going down the road of consumers goods cost break-downs, value chain, value streams, etc. it’s both refreshing and frustrating at the same time. My own experience tells me it’s not impossible, even for a layman, to make some basic calculations. I tried once (half-seriously but using some job related supply chain and quality tools) to do my own math for pricing policies on a couple of sporting knives of mine: at that time, S30V steel here was around 60 EUR/kg (and one can make some blades out of one kg ); G10 was around 4 EUR/kg here (and one can make a few scales out of one kg ); Titanium was 80 EUR/kg; mixed fittings (screws, washers, etc.) was few cents/bag here and I am talking B2C prices here, leave alone the B2B where tons of raw materials and components are bought and sold. I considered the applied technology and machinery for table cutlery - which is to some extent comparable - and then, going back to my “fundamental economics” books, I managed also to figure out a rough (but not that far) estimation about all the variable and fixed costs, taxes, the profit a company must have, etc. and here I go. A software like Cost Simulation also was useful, which even included some basic logistics costs calculation. So, it was not impossible to roughly estimate what a “fair” price for me, as a customer, would have been, really taking into account most of the variables.

My personal conclusion was that almost the totality of my beloved sporting knives were “overpriced” , like many other consumers goods my family and I still buy anyway (where cosmetics are the pinnacle ). I maintain pricing policies are very much linked to different companies' business models, their visions and policies rather than to everything else. Rolls Royce, by definition, is not targeting the many people, Dacia maybe more.

The “quality-speed-price, pick any two” thing it’s quite an old saying and, as engineer, I live with that almost every day . Actually I see it’s not impossible to get the three of them, if a company really wants to. Let’s also consider that the “value-based” definition of quality ((best combination of price and features) is only one dimension of “quality”. For some the “fit for use” or “perceived quality” it’s much more important. For others the “manufacturing-based” definition of quality (conforming to specs and drawing), the “customers-based” (meeting or exceeding expectations) or the “product –based” (this product has something others do not have) are more important dimensions. Quality really means different thing for different people. Dacia can be very well compared to Rolls Royce and still win the competition in several quality dimensions…

About internet “knowledge” and the internet “experts”… well, I really handle that with care. It works both ways really. Still today the biggest BS I read/watch are precisely published in the web…

 

[22-rimfire]

You don't always get a free screw, and it is ridiculous to EXPECT one if the warranty is not specific as to that...what you HOPE(want) and what you GET(need)? Often quite different.

What is more important than getting a free screw or whatever is being able to buy the correct one. They really don't have to sell or give them a way. Many of us buy things at Sears and occasionally need parts. Consider what they charge you for a $2 part... minimum order, shipping, etc.

Added comment. Economy of scale mentioned about Victorinox. Example. I like salads. I can buy a large prepared salad at WM for about $4 or $5. Try buying all the ingredients separately to create that salad for $5. I buy the ingredients and half of them get tossed out or wasted.

 

[AmosPaul]

I have a question for you:

What is more important? Price or quality?

sal

Both. If you were to chart price and quality on the same graph they would intersect at a place called value.

And it just so happens that the best value for a high-end knife is the Paramilitary 2! The way the scales are precisely milled out to accept the liners and the angled jimping must mean more time spent machining driving up the cost to produce the knife. I don't know how you guys can sell it for such a low price.